yet another "my nitrates are high" thread

[srsly]

after keeping fresh water for 4 years i did a bunch of reading, talked to friends, and decided to do a marine tank. freshwater was boring. there's so much to mess with every day with a marine tank. and i like to fiddle with stuff

here's some tank info:
20g long
~30lbs live rock
1/4" sand bed
AC30 powerhead
SC HOB stuffed with cheato
coralife super skimmer 65
DIY 70w MH pendant

last tested params (and this is where i'm kind of skimping :| ):
ammonia: slightly more than zero
nitrate: ~40ppm
alk: ~300
ph: 8.3
not testing for calcium...

occupants:
bicolor blenny
neon goby
3 red-legged hermits
1 peppermint shrimp
1 nassarius snail
2 zoanthid colonies which are thriving
1 star polyp colony that is thriving
1 candy cane that looks like he's seen better days
1 mushroom that is thriving
4 button polyps that are thriving

after all that, here's the problem. my nitrates will not go down. i had the expected spike in everything after about three weeks, then things seemed to settle down and i started populating. now about a month and a half later my nitrates are up and i can't figure out why. i used to have 5 hermits but two were mysteriously killed. i pulled out their bodies so they wouldn't rot, so i'm pretty certain that's not it. my skimmer runs 24/7 so even if i missed anything, that should have helped, or one of the other critters could have eaten it.
i've got coralline algae growth: green and purple, some red. i don't really have an algae problem. sure some brown stuff grows on the glass and every other day or so i scrub small patches off the front of the tank, but it's nothing i would call a problem. i don't really have any flow problems, only one spot that's kind of sluggish, but it's right underneath the powerhead so water is definitely moving there.
as far as maintenance i top off about every day, every other day at most. i do 10% water changes every weekend with RO water from the grocery store and tropic marin pro-reef salt. the water is from of those drinking water dispensers that says it's RO filtered and free of chlorine etc. in an effort to drop some nitrates in a hurry i got 5 gallons from my friend's RO/DI unit which is absolutely clean and changed in the whole bucket. i tested the next morning and my nitrates were actually a little higher. i only feed twice a week. wednesday i take two dime sized flakes of formula one and crumble them up. the blenny and neon eat most of it, and i figure the rest filters down for the hermits and shrimp. on sunday i take a chunk of mysis out of the freezer slightly smaller than a pencil eraser and feed them that. the only thing i don't do very often is vacuum the sand bed. after some searching i'm going to try that every week as well as during the week, maybe once a day, just stirring up the sand bed and getting detritus floating around in the water column.

can anyone think of anything else that might be causing high nitrates? my candy cane really isn't happy, and i don't really want to put anything else in there until this drops off.

 

[Meche]

Hey srsly, welcome to RF

I have no idea why you have high nitrates. I'm sure one of the nitrate gurus will jump in here soon. Good luck.

What do you mean by Ammonia being "slightly more than zero". What kind of test kit are you using?

 

[srsly]

Hey srsly, welcome to RF

I have no idea why you have high nitrates. I'm sure one of the nitrate gurus will jump in here soon. Good luck.

What do you mean by Ammonia being "slightly more than zero". What kind of test kit are you using?

i'm using a red sea liquid kit. where you match the color of the liquid to a plastic card. i mean slightly more than zero because it's just noticeably darker than the color for zero but not really near the color for .5ppm.

 

[Krish]

Welcome to RF!! About your nitrates, have you ever tested the water that you use before dding it to the tank? In addition, what test kit are you using? I would possibly double check your test with another kit (maybe take some of your water down to the LFS and let them test it for you) and see if they are consistant with one another. The only other thing that stands out is the salt mix you use... The tropic marin pro-reef salt. In all honesty, I can't say I've ever heard of that one before The vast majority of people use Instant Ocean because of its consistancy as well as not containing any levels of nitrates and phosphates. Maybe you can test the water right out of the bottle first and then test itwith the salt added to it and see what nitrate readings you get before adding it to the tank. That could quite possible be the culprit...If not, then we know we need to dig a little deeper

 

[Krish]

I guess we were posting all the same time(LOL) If you are reading ammonia still, then the tank is still in the cycling process. You should be reading 0 ammonia and nitrite. Either that or it's the test kit. Salifert is by far the most popular and acurate test kits. Here are a few polls to take a look at to give you some info on the salt and test kits

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15918&highlight=salt+poll


http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=88


http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19265&highlight=test+poll

 

[srsly]

tropic marin comes highly recommended on nano-reef (where i came from ) so that's why i'm using it. the friend that got me on that board has been using it for months with no problems. his corals look happy and healthy. that's where i got the candy cane frag and one of my zoo colonies.

the test i was using before was some petco brand dip strip, jungle something (yeah i know) and i figure, if it shows anything, i've got a problem. my lfs uses aquarium pharmaceuticals liquid tests, also available at petco. i've also tested with those kits and gotten the same results as the dip strip. i thought it might be the water i'm using but i haven't had a chance to test it before i've put it in, so i'll have to do that next time i get some. though it seems strange to me that changing 30% of the water volume with water i know to be perfectly clean, with salt that my friend uses in his tank with the same water and has no problems, would result in no change (if not higher readings) of nitrates in my tank.

it also seems strange to me that my tank would cycle for three months i suppose next stop is taking water to the lfs for a full battery of tests. my lfs also suggested putting dechlorinator in just in case, and i completely forgot that messes up protein skimmers. so now i can't use my skimmer without flooding. which makes me sad because it was pulling so much goo out of my water guess i'll wait until morning to see if it's settled out before turning it on again.

 

[Krish]

though it seems strange to me that changing 30% of the water volume with water i know to be perfectly clean, with salt that my friend uses in his tank with the same water and has no problems, would result in no change (if not higher readings) of nitrates in my tank.

Well, you said you never tested the water before putting it in so you can't really say it is perfectly clean Also you said you were using just ro water and most people use ro/di water. The fact that your friend uses the same thing and doesn't have any issues and you do is something you will see played out over and over in the hobby that no matter how close things are (equipment, salt mix, size of the tank etc) one may have success and the other failure. His tank may be able to process the nitrates a lot quicker than your tank. The fact that you are stll reading ammonia (if your test kit is correct) means you shouldn't have any corals in there because your tank is not completely cycled yet or reached an equilibrium. Changing 30% of your water and having nitrates go up is an indication that something is wrong with your salt batch or water otherwise the nitrates would drop. Either that or like suggested, bad test kits.

it also seems strange to me that my tank would cycle for three months

Cycling has no time frame and 3 weeks is really nothing for a cycle to be completed in. Usually you hear 6-8 weeks, but still that is just an assumption...Every tank is different and you have to factor in the condition of the rock being used, how long it takes to cure, and how long it takes for your tank to build up the necessary bacteria to be able to process all the ammonia and nitrite to drop them off completely. A cycle can take months as it did in my case so don't feel bad you are still reading ammonia after just 3 weeks

 

[srsly]

Well, you said you never tested the water before putting it in so you can't really say it is perfectly clean

i never tested the water from the grocery store. i tested the water i got from my friend's ro/di filter and it is clean. the thought of the water from the store only occurred to me saturday after the big water change and no positive results. i had a little left over from my friend's filter and tested that just to be sure.

as for the ammonia. i'm going to lean towards one of two things, inaccurate test kits, or me being blind. the only reason i say "slightly above zero" is because i can never tell if the color in the test tube matches the color on the card no matter what light or angle i look at it i'm just erring on the side of caution because to assume it's fine may be more disastrous than saying "close enough" and leaving it be. but i'm going to have the lfs test it just to be sure.

 

[morgan]

yeah the cycle is pain in the arse my ammonia took about 6 weeks to be 0 and i still had 20 nitrates did u do water changes during ur cycle sum people do im not sure what id do

 

[Krish]

i never tested the water from the grocery store. i tested the water i got from my friend's ro/di filter and it is clean. the thought of the water from the store only occurred to me saturday after the big water change and no positive results. i had a little left over from my friend's filter and tested that just to be sure.

as for the ammonia. i'm going to lean towards one of two things, inaccurate test kits, or me being blind. the only reason i say "slightly above zero" is because i can never tell if the color in the test tube matches the color on the card no matter what light or angle i look at it i'm just erring on the side of caution because to assume it's fine may be more disastrous than saying "close enough" and leaving it be. but i'm going to have the lfs test it just to be sure.

Yeah...Better safe than sorry. I'd let the LFS test it and possibly invest in some Salifert test kits. I personally rather spend the extra bucks for a good test kit like Salifert and know I am getting proper readings than to assume something less popular is accurate and lose all my livestock. As you can see just by that one poll, out of 23 voters, 21 of them use Salifert. Hope you get it all sorted out...Let us know what the results show

 

[Scooterman]

The cheap test kits your using will never give you an accurate enough test to know what is going on in your tank, well worth the extra cost as already stated. If you don't know what your really reading then it will be difficult to ever get your system stable, it will catch up with you in the long run.

i never tested the water from the grocery store. i tested the water i got from my friend's ro/di filter and it is clean. the thought of the water from the store only occurred to me saturday after the big water change and no positive results. i had a little left over from my friend's filter and tested that just to be sure.

as for the ammonia. i'm going to lean towards one of two things, inaccurate test kits, or me being blind. the only reason i say "slightly above zero" is because i can never tell if the color in the test tube matches the color on the card no matter what light or angle i look at it i'm just erring on the side of caution because to assume it's fine may be more disastrous than saying "close enough" and leaving it be. but i'm going to have the lfs test it just to be sure.

 

[srsly]

The cheap test kits your using will never give you an accurate enough test to know what is going on in your tank, well worth the extra cost as already stated. If you don't know what your really reading then it will be difficult to ever get your system stable, it will catch up with you in the long run.

maybe once things settle out. but right now, the difference between 42ppm and 40-50ppm doesn't really matter

this morning before i left for work i took a little of the RO/DI water from my friend's filter, which i tested saturday as clean and put some salt in it to 1.023sg. that tested clean too. or as clean as these wildly inaccurate test kits can tell me so at least it doesn't appear to be the salt.

 

[Scooterman]

No it would me more like 42ppm compared to 2ppm, you better be sure but whatever, glad you know what is needed.

 

[srsly]

after doing water changes with the water from my friend's RO/DI unit and things starting to look up i bought one myself. i kicked it on this morning and made 4 gallons, changed all that in my tank and presto, nitrates dropping. lesson learned: make sure your water is DI in addition to RO. also, dechlorinator makes your skimmer go nuts. don't use that. and you won't need to if your water is really RO/DI.

 

[Krish]

Congrats!!! Glad things are improving for ya!

 

[Damsel13]

I am glad your nitrates are going down - mine aren't

I am so bummed. The thing that I can't figure is got 2 readings that were lower right after I took out filter stuff but then right back up. So hi ho hi ho back to work I go on the tank that is.

Did you find a long term solution for your Nitrates?

 

[srsly]

I am glad your nitrates are going down - mine aren't

I am so bummed. The thing that I can't figure is got 2 readings that were lower right after I took out filter stuff but then right back up. So hi ho hi ho back to work I go on the tank that is.

Did you find a long term solution for your Nitrates?

my long term solution was to buy a RO/DI unit and make absolutely sure that my water was DI in addition to RO. after some reading i found out that people can't actually drink RO/DI water so the chances of my grocery store's water being DI is really low. they'd have to add minerals at the end of the process if they did and that would be detrimental to my tank anyhow.

so my advice: make sure your water source is actually clean.

also, like people mentioned before, you might be cycling still, are you seeing ammonia at all? (i have no idea how old your tank is so i can't really comment on that though). it's probably not a good idea to be using a filter sponge unless you clean it out constantly. they just catch larger detritus and put bad stuff right back into your water as it breaks down in the sponge.

 

[cr8signs]

My tank also has high nitrates. 40. 100 gal. with 160 lbs live rock and a protein skimmer. I can't seem to get them any lower. My RO water is .2.
I have done 50% water changes every 2 weeks since Christmas,06. I have only one damsel, one cleaner shrimp and some corals, which are all doing awesome and growing very, very fast. I only feed the fish a few flakes 1-2x a week. Can live rock hold all the extra nitrates? I once heard that.

 

[Krish]

Can live rock hold all the extra nitrates? I once heard that.

Yeah...If the live rock becomes saturated/full it cannot denitrify anymore from what I understand so therefore can do nothing to lower nitrates. Can you tell us a bit more about your system like are you using a wet/dry with bio-balls, a sand bed and if so what type etc. That way, we may be able to figure out the source of your nitrates

 

[cr8signs]

I do have a wet dry, I'm not sure how big the sump is. I think around 10 gallons, it seems small. I have a aqua c skimmer in the sump that barely fits. No bio balls, just a white/blue floss to catch junk. I might have to do away with this. I have a hard time getting to it, so it isn't changed as often as it should be. 1-2 times a month. Not nearly enough? Also, please don't laugh, but this tank has been up and running for years. About 12 now. I still have only crushed coral in the bottom, about 2-4 inches. Under the rocks and to the back I don't have hardly any, because it is hard to reach and clean there.
I am thinking about going bare bottom or a sand bottom, but to be honest I really do not understand how to vacuum the sand without sucking it all out and a bare bottom sounds so, well, plain and boring, sorry just my opinion. Any help is greatly appreciated, sorry about riding along on this thread, but the topic fits so well.