A Better Salt Study Thread

[Scooterman]

This could be debated.

I understand your point before even posting but the type of testing described above could have limitless variables, costly & most probably would turn out to be the same as the simple chemical testing of each. All these salts compensate on certain elements to gain in others. So now your saying you want to do all this to see if you can actually do better than what is provided in nature basically, then you need to consider species requirements, so you would need a new batch of salt for each individual species, this isn't practical & not even worth debating IMO

Eric has done more for individual reefers than most, his experiences are proven helpful, even his free salt study to the public although agreed isn't perfect It still can be beneficial. I see nothing wrong with pointing out problems with it but until someone is willing to spend the time & money to do as what is being proposed the debate is very limited & opinionated heavily.

 

[sihaya]

Actually, like I've said, I don't see the point of studying salt brands like this at all... even if one did have all the money and resources to do a major study. It would just be a waste.

Also, though I swore this thread wasn't going to turn into a critique of Mr. Borneman's entire hobby career... lately I've come to learn that a lot of what Mr. Borneman has done for the hobby had already been done. I've even had people tell me that they'd been using "his" surge device long before he ever mentioned it or put it in his book.

So I hate to say it, but in my opinion today, the main thing Borneman has added to this hobby is style. He's very attractive, well spoken and well written. He has a "flare" and a stlye about him such that he can get people's attention, explain things, and make people understand. And that's certainly a valuable gift. Seriously, his better articles are still some of my favorites.

But again, it just doesn't change the fact that his salt study is absolutely worthless. And it *could* have been done better (even with the limited budget).

 

[Scooterman]

he-he, i was waiting for the replies & know I'll get more!
He put in words & exposed information that lots of people would of never seen or understand.
I stick to the simple test showing the break down of each & to date when this was done IO won hands down. It is about as controlled as you can get even though it isn't perfect for practical purposes it serves the job.

 

[sihaya]

lol Exactly. In fact, when I was trying to explain to my husband (a neurosurgeon) who Eric Borneman was in the hobby, I said "he's kinda like the Dr. Gupta of reef keeping... he doesn't really bring anything new to the table, but he's handsome and friendly and really good at explaining what's already there."

(In case you've never heard of him, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is this hot young neurosurgeon turned CNN medical correspondent. He doesn't actually do much medicine at all. He just writes articles and does interviews on any medical topic coming into the news.)

 

[gman0526]

Merry Christmas to you too...

 

[CCR]

I just want to know what salt. No matter what brand I use, someone won't like it. So I will not post it. I just want the answer to what is the closest to NSW. It seems we will never know, or do we?

Merry Christmas

 

[Scooterman]

This is the very same reason why I closed the last thread! I'll consider this thread closed until farther notice.

Edit:
Ok I deleted a few post because of the offending post, sorry for the inconvenience, I will keep it open for now.

 

[sihaya]

Please, please, please don't close this thread. It's getting so hard to find a forum where this study can be discussed without people freaking out or being threatened and/or intimidated, insulted, etc. all resulting in the deleting or closing of the thread. I didn't see the attacking posts and I don't care what they said. I'm just begging you all... please don't get this thread deleted or closed. If you want to lash out at me, please do it via PM or email. I'm a big girl, I can take it... just please, not in this thread, ok?

Thank you so much Scott for keeping things under control!! and Merry Christmas all!

 

[gman0526]

Sara will all due repect, is there anything else to discuss other than what has been said already? You made your point already, the "study" is flawed, I think there isn't a lot of people that would disagree with that.

Happy Holidays everybody!!!!

 

[sihaya]

I agree that right now it looks like there's not much more to discuss, but who knows? A new pair of eyes might come read this and have an interesting new question or comment to add. Also, I know there are a lot of people waiting until the "official" results come out before they comment. I'm not so bravely arrogant that I would say with confidence that there's nothing left to say here. Maybe there is and I just haven't thought of it. So with those points in mind, I'd really like the thread to stay open.

 

[Aquarium Scienc]

Most "salt studies" result in hobbyists offering comments and opinions. Little usable facts or information is generated.

Eric's "study" was flawed initially. Results were posted prior to the entire effort being completed. He rushed his opinions for MACNA before all his data was compiled.

Several brands of leading salts were not tested. Hobbyists test kits were used vs. independent testing with certified lab. equipment and a Ph. D. signing off test results.

One package of each brand was used. If that package was a unique mix of chemiccals due to inconsistent mixing, etc. that would not be a representative test of that brand.

In order to circumvent any concerns regarding inconsistent brands, multiple package sizes of each brand should have been evaluated.

Like the majority of other salt tests or studies, a shoe string budget approach was employed. Meaningful scientific results are generated by highly qualified lab. technicians employed at an independent lab. that utilizes sophisticated equipment that is geared for the evaluation of complex mediums such as seawater.

He used 10 gallon aquariums. His technique was to change 100% of each aquariums water on a regular basis. I don't know of any marine keeper that changes that amount of water. Those of us that have done this have a disaster or near disaser with our aquariums.

I have seen Eric speak on several occasions. He presents an entertaining visiual slide show. He is a most accomplished under water photographer.

IMO his aquarium keeping skills are mid level at best. He professed to not change aquarium water, as each time he makes a water change, his animals appear to suffer.

That would indicate his water change technique was had one or more problems.

Like most well meaning individuals that attempt to offer information to hobbyists (especially on the internet), this latest effort simply raises more questions than answers. Qualified and advanced marine keepers ignore this type of effort.

As for a marine salt that closely resembles NSW. That might not be the goal of some brands. There are pro's and con's for producing such a formula.

For examle, if a marine salt tested at a specific gravity of 1.026 with 400 ppm. of calcium, that level of Ca could be introduced several ways.

Calcium cloride, calcium sulfate or other forms of Ca could be used in the preparation. Each form of calcium will yield a working solution with a different ability to produce a clean/clear medium that will produce various types of alga.

The only way for meaningful marinemix evaluations would be to have multiple sizes of each brand tested by an independent lab. At the completion of testing, the lab. director (Ph D) signs off the test.

Then each band could be tested in working aquariums under the strict supervision of qualified aquarists.

Happy New Year.

 

[sihaya]

You see... and just when we thought there was nothing left to say!

I do think it's important for hobbyists to analysis these studies and projects (even when it does start to seem repetative at times). So when you all get sick of talking about salt, maybe I'll have to share the info I have on the tragic fate of the Calhoun Model Corals Project. ;-)

 

[aquariumdebacle]

To say that Eric's studies were "flawed initially" is an insult. You and the person that started this thread have done nothing to prove he is wrong. You are merely stating the obvious (shoestring budget) and cause people to question the validity of your statements because of your personal attacks gainst him. I would have to say you have very little understanding of the hobby. This is a hobby. He attempted to study something with the resources that he had. He does not have a grant.The salt companies would/will not offer any finnancial help because it is in their best interest for studies like this to not take place. You must be a member of one of those companies. I won't disagree that as a strictly "scientific experiment" it has detractions but he is not submitting it to a "scietific journal" he is submitting it to a "hobby" journal, period! These personal attacks are unwarrented espescially from such ill-informed, close minded, industry backing peoiple as yourselves. I have no problem with critism but to attack a well respected member of the HOBBY (of which you are not!) is to say the least, sad. Please take this thread off and if you are to censor me for my attacks (indefense of a respected individual)then take theirattacksas well! All I ask is that yoube fair and not discourage people from attempting experiments. Why would you want to be perceived as close-minded or worse a corporate stooge? Take the value of what he presents, note the areas of concern and leave the personal atttacks to the ones that care about you.

 

[sihaya]

Please don't think I'm asking this to be antagonistic, but did you read the whole original post? I know it's long, but it's worth reading. I do explain in some detail exactly why the study is poorly designed and flawed (REGARDLESS of budget constraints). In fact, at the end of the post I talk about how the study could have been done better on the same or similar budget constraints.

You should also know that I did consult other people on this. I ran this by several friends and others in the hobby. And I have yet to find any established professional researcher in science who disagrees with me.

And in any case... we don't live in China. As Americans, we're allowed to question the authority of our leaders... from congressmen to reef geek experts, it doesn't matter. We have the freedom (and arguably even the responsibility) to question and re-examine who we follow and who we respect based on their work.

But like I've said, I do think Mr. Borneman, overall, is good for the hobby and this thread doesn't attack him personally... just his work and maybe a bit of his general career as a hobbyist. Honestly, I don't understand is why this hobby is sooooo protective of its leaders and why so many hobbyists are so unwilling to challange them. I hope you know that it's not like this in other hobbies...

 

[aquariumdebacle]

You said that he only has style; that is a personal attack. The other person that posted said he at best "mid-level"; I think that is a personal and unnessseccary attack on a man that has done more for the hobby than you and the other poster will do in your entire lifetime. I do not have a problem with the first few posts but you then degraded it into a personal attack on a highly respected memberr of the community. Critisize the man's technique not the man or his motives!

 

[gman0526]

Most "salt studies" result in hobbyists offering comments and opinions. Little usable facts or information is generated.

No "data" generated by this "study" concludes anything whatsoever as to what salt brand is better. It was flawed to begin with and it will be flawed even when all the data is compiled. Trying to justify this being fed to hobbyists as conclusive data based on previous contributions by Eric is just plain irresponsible. BTW what groundbreaking contributions has EB made? Yes, he has been helpful to many a hobbyist and has shared a lot of information available to him but other than that... We need to stop this "expert zealotry", and realize that they can and will make mistakes too just like most of us have done at one point in time.

If you want a good salt study just get NSW samples, get full composition analysis. Then run the same analysis on ASW mixes for a year to foresee the FACT that batches of the same ASW mix are different, whatever is closer to NSW is the best. You don't need tanks setup at all, that way you create way too many variables between the samples. JMHO.

 

[Aquarium Scienc]

My post was not intended to be a personal attack on Eric. My comment regarding his mid level abilities are from what I observed first hand. Shoe sting budget projects pale in comparison to big money projects performed by qualified personel. Hobbyists are not industry leaders.

Advanced hobbyists that are motivated for the betterment of our hobby and with and through contact with industry leaders (manufacturers with multi million dollar facilities) can perform a variety of experiements and associated research. Their results can be incorporated into new or refined products.

It appears that some posts understand what the original "study" effort yielded. Some understand what the initial subject theme of this thread is about. Others are defending an individual and not what he did (right or wrong).

Regretabily personalities and opinions surface and sometimes dominate a thread vs. what will assist marine aquarium hobbyists.

The word hobbyist is exactly that. Very few if any hobbyists have the resources or qualifications to produce originally generated meaningful scientific data.

No mention of how various ionic values are achieved has been addressed. Example: Calcium of 400 ppm. at 35 ppt. can be the result of various approaches of calcium addition to the marine salt recipie. Each form of Ca has it own unique properties.

Some posts support a marine salt that closely matches NSW. While hundreds if not thousands of posts (on this and other boards) advocate Ca, Sr, Alk, etc. being at higher values than NSW. Which is it?

Most of the confusion and misinformation following an honest attempt to offer usable information is generated by arm chair marine aquarium chemistry experts. This is the nature of the internet.

In the past the most indepth study was attacked online by a few online personalities. At the same time it was taken seriously by the professional and educational community world wide.

Dr. Ron's bio assay salt testing effort was torn apart by a few online personalities that did not understand and could not match his effort.

If marine salt manufacturers were to support an independent study it is doubtful they would fund a hobbyist.

 

[MtnDewMan]

Dan, this thread as posted is not intended as Eric Bashing but intended to "discuss" the salt study. No bashing required, no bashing allowed. Plain and simple. So please stop making it into one.

 

[sihaya]

If marine salt manufacturers were to support an independent study it is doubtful they would fund a hobbyist.

Good point... who would they fund though? and what kind of study? Honestly, like I've said, I'm not so sure studying salt brands as such is a worthwhile endeavor. I'd rather see some studies done to help figure out what we actually need in the salt (in other words, theoretically, what should an ideal salt mix have in it? and in what concentrations?)

 

[sihaya]

Thanks Mtndewman! Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays/etc. to you!

You said that he only has style;

I also said he's a great writer and a great teacher with an extensive knowledge base. That's a lot! Certainly people have gotten far in this hobby with less. Now I'm just looking at Mr. Borneman's research with a critical eye and giving his work the same critique I would that of any mortal man. I can understand how you feel though. It's not easy tearing apart the work of someone you respect. However, I'm afraid that sometimes it's the only intellectually responsible thing to do.

But anyway, I gotta go now... I have Christmas presents to play with!