A little reading: Blue Coral Method

[thekingfish]

Here is a before and after of a ORA A. Tortusa after 6 wks.
I have changed from xm bulb to Reeflux bulb since first pic. was taken.

Wow, that is great growth. Did you notice an improvement in color in addition to that pretty impressive growth? Its hard to tell from the pic cause the change in bulbs...reeflux can make blues look kinda funny sometimes.

Also noticed the growth on the frag to the right of the tort.

 

[charlesr1958]

I am not trying to be offensive, but it is hard to maintain when I see yet another goofy "idea" tossed out yet again. Did it ever occur to anyone that just the simple act of feeding an animal might do it some good? Or as to why we should believe who ever came up with this? What are their credentials? Of all the statements being claimed as fact, how are those claims substantiated? If it is just some guy at a pet shop, come on now. These are the same people who gave us garlic...lol

Elevated levels of calcium, mag and so on? What is possibly the point of doing so? If a coral takes an "x" minute amount of those elements out of the water in a given day, Do you think it actualy matters if it takes it out of a 420 level or a 500 level? It doesnt.

Sugar? Very bad idea, there are quite a few studies, from actual scientists, who have shown that elevated carbon levels equate into elevated bacterial levels, all of which leads to coral pathogens (disease). This is yet another example of what I am talking about, someone hears "corals use carbon" and right away, if they use it, then providing a bunch of it means the corals will love it. Not a thought given that maybe other life forms may find it to their liking as well.

Why do the corals do well on the so called "light" formula? If the original recipe was all so wonderfull, why is there no difference shown? Then ask this, What amino acids do corals use? How much? How much is in natural sea water? What else could be using it? How do you test for it? What levels should be maintained? How do you maintain it? At what level does it become toxic? Can they be toxic? and on and on.

yes, feed your corals, they do much better by doing so, but please do not jack up elements for no good reason or add some other foreign substances to your water. Its all just voodoo science, and in most cases, just plain stoopid. Growth hormone therapy for corals..., whats next? Robotic implants?

Chuck

 

[SueT]

Chuck, I think you are missing the info provided. The sps keepers in Italy have been using this method for years now. What has been shown is a very healthy reef tank and many of them. There has been no bad sides to feeding this method. Believe me if I would have seen any down side to using this I would never of began putting it in my reef cause I can guarantee you no one is more careful of their reef than me. And a lot of the fine folks on this board. With the growth threads we have seen for quite some time now and of all the european reefs that happen to mostly be sps and everyone that has tried this has not had 1 bad thing to report. They are detailing all of this with a report due out soon in the reefitalia magazine. Call it goofy, call it sanke oil, whatever it does work and works just fine for me.

The difference in Reefer Patts pics is due to his having used XM's in the first pic and reeflux in the second. The blues are out of this world with reeflux.

 

[charlesr1958]

But where is there any proof that all of the benefits seen is not from just simply feeding the animals? Is there any actual science to back up the use of the aforementioned "additives" ? If not, then any percieved benefit is strictly ancedotal and has no meaning other than corals like to eat.
And again, the info provided? There is none. None of it made any sense at all, other than feeding the corals. Sorry, but I would need alot more to go on than some guys word at a fish store. Guess I will have to wait for that magazine to come out. Is that mag an online magazine?

Chuck

 

[Curtswearing]

Here's some interesting reading.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1218179&blobtype=pdf

With that said, I've never used any hormones of any type so I cannot speak intelligently regarding this method. I have experimented with creatine (an amino acid for humans) before and got good results. With that said, I got just as good results refining my blender mush recipe without creatine.

I cannot speak either way regarding the efficacy of using GH. I can tell you that boosting your Ca and alk has long term negative impacts on corals though.

Google Scholar is your friend. http://scholar.google.com/

 

[DonW]

But where is there any proof that all of the benefits seen is not from just simply feeding the animals? Is there any actual science to back up the use of the aforementioned "additives" ? If not, then any percieved benefit is strictly ancedotal and has no meaning other than corals like to eat.
And again, the info provided? There is none. None of it made any sense at all, other than feeding the corals. Sorry, but I would need alot more to go on than some guys word at a fish store. Guess I will have to wait for that magazine to come out. Is that mag an online magazine?

Chuck

I think the only way anyone is going to find out just how the corals are using the system is a radiation tissue analysis. We also need to evaluate bacterial reproduction. I really doubt any of us are going to pay for that. The assumption the Blue Methed changes growth rates and colors needs to be left to the individual users. Everyone is going to have different results. There is alot more to this system than feeding corals. Bacteria plays a big roll on how well it works or does not work. Blowing it off as snake oil is ignorant and closed minded. Nobody is selling anything, this information is given free of charge. What each individual does with it is up to them. I do caution that it can cause a "nutrient explosion" so if someone wants to give this a shot the tank needs to watched closely until you have a good system in place.

Don

 

[charlesr1958]

"Blowing it off as snake oil is ignorant " Then please enlighten me. Close minded? Not blindly following a so called method that has no reasoning behind it is just common sense.

Evaluate bacterial reproduction? That is really old news. Here is a good start, a simple google will net tons of info.
http://www.cas.muohio.edu/%7Estevenjr/mbi202/bacteria202.html#Nitrospira

And for those adding sugar to your systems, these references should give ya the willys.

Kline, D.I., Kuntz, N.M., Breitbart, M., Knowlton, N., and Rohwer, F. Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality. Marine Ecology Progress Series 314: 119-125, 2006


Neilan M. Kuntz, David I. Kline, Stuart A. Sandin, Forest Rohwer. 2005. Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species. MEPS 294:173-80


Ritchie KB, Smith GW (1995) Preferential carbon utilization by surface bacterial communities from water mass, normal, and white-band diseased Acropora cervicornis. Mol Mar Biol Biotech 4:345–354

Yes, feed your corals, not an issue, the steroid/hormones? How can you justify using them? You can't. Yet you still add it in with your corals? I'm sorry, but I find that simply amazing that you can so blindly follow a method that has no merit what so ever. I have nothing else to add other than to continue asking for information that is obviously not available from the sources of this so called method. Have a great week!

Chuck

 

[Curtswearing]

You know what?

I've talked with Don for some time here. He's a great guy.

I've talked with Chuck before on RAG, here, and MD. I don't him as well but he seems like a nice guy to me.

I've talked with Sue for quite some time on many, many forums and she's a better person than all of us put together.

With the above said, lets discuss the issue and try to word our posts in such a way that the previous poster is not offended forcing them to post aggressively in response.

Everyone on the thread is a nice person. Let's all agree to stay that way.

 

[class clown]

K.. yep.. totally agree - let's keep it contstructive here so we can get our ideas out and learn and don't get the thread shut down.

That said, I'm going to give a modified recipe a try..

This morning, I bought 5 clams, 5 mussles, 20 smaller cocktail shrimps (bigger one's were $22 a lb -yikes), 5 oysters, spirula, green and purple seaweed (couldn't find the red) and will be blending it up and freezing it in cubes today. I'm going to leave the sugar out of the recipe b/c I've also heard some not so good things in the past about the affects and I'm not sure what benefit it would provide at this time. I've got some reefplus Amino Acids on hand too although my bottle is running a little low.

To me.. This doesn't seem so contriversal. The conconcotion above are all things i've introduced to my system before at one time or another as normal food (even the spirula which fish stores often add to brine shrimp). I just haven't added it all at one time. So I'm really not too worried about it.

One question I have though for Reeferpat, Sue, and maybe Don too.. Why is the timing of the introduction of these foods so important? or is it? It seemed like what has been described above has pretty strict timelines "One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone)."

Thanks guys..

 

[spongebob lover]

omg !! you doods talk to much .
I better start reading this thread if i ever wanna catch up .

 

[class clown]

This morning, I bought 5 clams, 5 mussles, 20 smaller cocktail shrimps (bigger one's were $22 a lb -yikes), 5 oysters, spirula, green and purple seaweed (couldn't find the red) and will be blending it up and freezing it in cubes today. I'm going to leave the sugar out of the recipe b/c I've also heard some not so good things in the past about the affects and I'm not sure what benefit it would provide at this time.

Pat, Don, Sue & whoever else - feedback on this modded recipe welcomed and appreciated

 

[charlesr1958]

Agreed, I in no way meant to offend and understand that it may come off that way when one questions the beliefs of another. I am only asking for the science behind the method, as I would do for any "additive". Simple observations are usualy very misleading or I should say, misunderstood. With this method, I would not be at all surprised that the same results would be obtained if only the feeding part of it was applied. Hopefully, the other part of the equation is simply harmless at those levels. I for one, could not take the chance that it is not. At least not based on what I read as supposedly being an explanation. But again, I can not help but to sit here simply dumbfounded that others can blindly do what some fish store guy in italy suggests with out asking the hard questions about his very flawed reasoning. Wow!

Chuck

 

[DonW]

"Blowing it off as snake oil is ignorant " Then please enlighten me. Close minded? Not blindly following a so called method that has no reasoning behind it is just common sense.

Evaluate bacterial reproduction? That is really old news. Here is a good start, a simple google will net tons of info.
http://www.cas.muohio.edu/%7Estevenjr/mbi202/bacteria202.html#Nitrospira

And for those adding sugar to your systems, these references should give ya the willys.

Kline, D.I., Kuntz, N.M., Breitbart, M., Knowlton, N., and Rohwer, F. Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality. Marine Ecology Progress Series 314: 119-125, 2006


Neilan M. Kuntz, David I. Kline, Stuart A. Sandin, Forest Rohwer. 2005. Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species. MEPS 294:173-80


Ritchie KB, Smith GW (1995) Preferential carbon utilization by surface bacterial communities from water mass, normal, and white-band diseased Acropora cervicornis. Mol Mar Biol Biotech 4:345–354

Yes, feed your corals, not an issue, the steroid/hormones? How can you justify using them? You can't. Yet you still add it in with your corals? I'm sorry, but I find that simply amazing that you can so blindly follow a method that has no merit what so ever. I have nothing else to add other than to continue asking for information that is obviously not available from the sources of this so called method. Have a great week!

Chuck

There really is no right or wrong here since there is no known released science that can state one way or another. The suggestion that it doesnt work or is hazzardous is just as unfounded.

Actually I dont think anyone involved in this thread is adding hgh. Justification is up to the individule using the system. No merrit what so ever? Again thats also up to the individul user to decide wether it works for him/her.
Pat simply posted this information as informational only and has made no claims. I personally dont use it but am more than open minded enough to veiw his results as a personal success and wish him well.

Its people like us that are willing to try something new and inventive (possibly dangerous) that make this hobby what it is. Without it there will be no progression.

Don

 

[DonW]

Pat, Don, Sue & whoever else - feedback on this modded recipe welcomed and appreciated

I've never tried the methods prescribed in the Blue Method. I have my own concoction of liquified oysters and gln that produces good results.
There is also very little science behind my method. Other than the elevated protiens in sps tissue sample looked at by US Cell and Tissue. Other than elevated growth rates I have seen no great color change. It has had no effect on clams and has not elevated the protien levels found in mantle tissue. That about all the info I can give.

Don

Don

 

[SueT]

Curt, Thank you for what you said, I cannot say how much it is appreciated.

I can say that if you have not read, looked or gone over the thread regarding Italian sps tanks on RC then you really need to. There is no italian LFS guy giving this info/menu/recipe out. The entire list of tanks using this method is overwhelming. The health of their corals and more so, their tank systems is amazing.

Ben, what I do is add the AA via Reef PLus by SeaChem at 4pm. I feed my fish their normal feeding and then a few minutes before lights out at 6:30pm I add the BC recipe. Honestly I don't know what the difference will be without the glutamine. I sent Robert an email regarding this thread so he can chime in.

 

[SueT]

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7976

here is one of the original threads but this does include zoevit which we don't want to start anything else over.

 

[SueT]

Italy's Best! Matured SPS Aquariums. ( 1 2 3 4 ... Last page )Italy's Best! Matured SPS Aquariums. ( 1 2 3 4 ... Last page )

Here is the original thread from RC regarding the Italian sps tanks.

 

[class clown]

Ben, what I do is add the AA via Reef PLus by SeaChem at 4pm. I feed my fish their normal feeding and then a few minutes before lights out at 6:30pm I add the BC recipe. Honestly I don't know what the difference will be without the glutamine. I sent Robert an email regarding this thread so he can chime in.

Hmm.. so maybe I've misinturpreted something, but I thought Reefplus by seachem was AA which included the glutamine, no? if no, please give me some more details about the glutamine you are adding (amt, type, when to add, etc)

 

[ReeferPatt]

Hey folks, how goes it? Boy leave you guys alone for one day and you tear the house up. I don't know what I'm going to do with you kids....

First I'm NO SCIENTIST. With that said.

Hgh- human growth hormone- It is NOT the hormone per say that has anything to do with the growth. From what I understand when added to the system it breaks down into I believe 191 different AA's. (that figure may be off) It's those AA's that stimulate growth, NOT the hormone itself.

Most of the reefers in Italy have quit using the HGH. The people who have been experimenting with this method, not all, but several are either marine bioligist or in the scientific community. Some of the names are listed in the original thread over on RC. The main reasoning behind the hgh, and by the way they are working on finding out exactly what AA's are the most benefical, was the AA's that came from the hgh.
I have read every word over there. Dose that make me an expert "NO". Would I do this if I thought it would harm my sps/acros "NO". Nor would I post about it if I thought for one second it would harm anybody elses.

The sugar is added to bind the bacterias in the food. If the recipe "pappone" is followed to the letter, watch your perimeters, have efficient skimmer ect. ect. it does work. I can't say it improved my color as much as it did growth.
This is something when done correctly, feeding once a week for the first couple months will enhance growth. You must keep and eye on your tank, algae blooms if any, nutrients.
The picture of the tort I posted earlier has been in my tank, starting as a 1 1/2 frag from ORA back in sept 06, from that point till the first pic. that was the growth I had gotten out of it. From that point to the second pic is six weeks. That is just one example.
For those that want to make this hobby a scientific experiment, go for it. Me I'm going to make it a hobby, period. Been doing it since 1991, still learning and probably always will.....
If you need anymore explanation than that, GOOGLE IT or go read the RC thread. You can ask the italians anything you want, they will give you the answer.

 

[ReeferPatt]

Hmm.. so maybe I've misinturpreted something, but I thought Reefplus by seachem was AA which included the glutamine, no? if no, please give me some more details about the glutamine you are adding (amt, type, when to add, etc)

Ben,
Yes, the reefplus is a form of AA's. No it does not have the L Glutamine. You buy that from a health food store. It is another source of AA's in free form. You don't have to use it. If you want you could use just the reefplus twice a week without the feeding and the one night you plan to feed use if before feeding.
The reason behind feeding at night is that is when the corals due most of their feeding and laying down of skeleton, calcium use.
Hope this clears things up a little. Just make sure to start out slowly, give it a little time, it will work.
If you want to use the GLN, use it in your next batch of food. Get 500mg capsules and add ONE cap. only.