Barry Grossmans big tank

[ldrhawke]

Gidday all! So the pics below (click on the thumbs) show the tank as it stands today. On either side of it are equipment rooms that measure about 2m long x 1.20m wide and 3.5m high.



Underneath is a sump that runs the length of the tank and with access points from one side (man hole size) and from the front. I do not yet have a plan as to how I will utilize the sump. The literature I’ve looked at all has swayed me away from using any sort of filter media in the sump apart from broken up dead coral. Any contrary views??

There is about a 2.5 meter drop from the overflow to the sump manhole in the left side equipment room. Anyone have any thoughts on using an ETS type skimmer between the over flow and sump manhole, followed by a second downdraft type skimmer on the other side of the tank?

Apart from skimmer(s) and whatever is set up in the sump, the plan to date only calls for two further tanks, one containing activated carbon and the other silica, to be used as warranted.

Lastly the plan calls for a UV sterilizer unit for zapping new sea water and a RO unit for topping up with fresh water. Ozone would be better buts alas too many $$$ unless I'm missing something.

The tank itself drops some 25cm below the viewing pane and I thought I would fill the tank with that much live sand and probably 2 to 3 cubic meters of live rock. The returning water will be injected from the left and right sides of the tank using an alternating timer in order to hopefully create some sort of water circulation /movement in the tank.

Most of the light requirements will be provided by natural light. The tank has a 1.5 meter high glass structure of the top of it with full northerly exposure. We are located just below (to the south) of the equator. In addition there are 6 - 400 watt 20000k blue MH units and 4 double 1.5 meter fluorescent units. The MH units are positioned about 3ocm above water level.



That said, I worry that the tank is too deep-2.5 meters for the available lighting. I’m also worried that I’ll have trouble keeping the water temperature below 23c even though the viewing panel is in a centrally air conditioned room. I though I might put a small AC unit in the glass structure above the tank but I’m not sure that it would be enough to counter the effects of natural exposure to the sun and heat generated artificial lights. The average temperature here year round is 28 to 30c and never really drops below 25. I had contemplated using underground piping as a chiller in the manner suggested by Piercho but don’t have anyplace to do that. The only alternative I can think of is shipping some titanium pipe from over your way and making a chiller in the sump using air conditioning spare parts.


Have read and considered everyone’s posts. Lots of helpful hints and points regarding position of the compressor and heat, noise and dust issues all noted. This will save me a lot of grief! Is there any consensus as to the best type of diffuser to use: KW, bonded glass , ceramic or other??

Anyway, I appreciate everybody’s interest and advice so far and will consider any advice given.

Barry

What an exciting dream project.......fun fun fun

A few of many many comments.

I'd hold off on any sort of cooler. With the volume of water and the distance the lights are off the water I would simply try to use a couple of fans directed to any open water surface area that are hooked up to a temperture controller. I think you will be impressed with how effective natural plus cooling can be.

Second.....maybe you are planning it but I would not depend upon the sump return flow only to develop adequate water movment. I would have at least a 2 tp 5 hp, 300 to 500 gpm, recirculation pumps system piped as you described to alternate left to right and so it causes a lot of periodic water movement. Two separate pumps one for left and one for right would be easier and more cost effective than piping and valves. It would also be an installed back up if one pump went down.

To save on energy I'd have the separate large volume recirculation system set on a timer so it only came on every 6 hours for a couple of hours to mimic the tide flow and allow for settling and tank clarity. In fact since it is a somewhat commerical display tank, maybe have it come on when people aren't trying to look into the tank. It will hopefully stir things up pretty good to reduce maintenance from detruis build up on the rock and bottom. I presently have a 50 gpm Dolphin 3000 pump on a 50 gal tank mimicing the tide every 6 hours and it is working very well.

Third...I would have filter bags in the sump and empty them daily. A very simple multi bag system that will over flow into the sump as they become full. I am assuming from your rendering you plan on having large fish in the tank. Removing the waste and getting it out of the system before it starts to breakdown is important and make everything perform better.

For night and mood lighting affect I would have a half dozen narrow beam blue spot lights that would come on in the evening.

etc, etc, etc Oh, fun fun fun

 

[Scooterman]

I'm guessing here but the tank itself is made out of cement like a swimming pool? What are you planning for the front display? I have to admit, this is one awesome project, wish I was there to help in some way. Now as far as the natural lighting, is the top area open directly to the outside or is there some sorts of acrylic cover for the thing? Sorry, I can't imagine these things of such a large scale.

 

[NaH2O]

The literature I’ve looked at all has swayed me away from using any sort of filter media in the sump apart from broken up dead coral.

I don't know when talking about a tank of this magnitude, whether it applies. Hopefully, someone else can shed some light on this area.

I have a couple of questions. What thickness of acrylic or glass is the front going to be? What type of sealants were used on the concrete?

 

[ldrhawke]

.....I have a couple of questions. What thickness of acrylic or glass is the front going to be? What type of sealants were used on the concrete?

Good questions :razz: Let me give you the short version of sealant problem I ran into 20 years ago building my first salt water tank. I decided to build a 500 gallon tank out of double 3/4" marine plywood. I covered it with multiple coats of epoxy. It was built into the wall of my home, very similar to what you are doing in concrete. I installed 3/4" tempered plate glass and used a half dozen tubes of marine silcone in a heavy wide bead between the tank and glass to seal it.

About a week later I filled it, didn't leak a drop, a month later fish, and six months later I was on the slopes skiing. I get a call on my cell phone from our house keeper....all the water had leaked out of the tank and the fish were flopping around on the bottom of the tank.

What I later figured out had happened: the center of wide silicone sealent bead between the glass and the epoxy covered plywood never fully cured and remained fluid. It eventually, 6 months later, chemcially reacted with the epoxy on the plywood and broke the adhesive bond between the epoxy and the plywood. This allowed water to seep behind the epoxy coating and out of the tank. I got out of the salt water hobby for nearly 20 years after that experience.

The same potential seal problem can occur with concrete.

1. Concrete is not water proof unless you have added special additive to the mix or coat it with a sealant paint or other type of water proofing. I would coat the tank with a quality paint such as waterproof concrete paint or a 2 part epoxy.

2. If it was me I would use something like a 2" by 1/2" strip of dense neoprene rubber between the glass and concrete, with marine grade silcone sealant on each side of the rubber seal strip to bond it to the concrete and the glass.

3. Using a rubber seal strip also makes up for imperfections in leveling the concrete surface. If you are installing glass, even a tiny high spot on the concrete touching the glass could stress shatter it when you filled the tank with water, or even months or years after the tank is filled.

 

[Barry Grossman]

Okay...one by one... John: I will post pics & dimensions of sump and equipment rooms tonight.

John: are you suggesting just a normal but gravity ded counter current skimmer or something with media in the chamber: see ETS thumb? Also would you still run a second skimmer unit on the other side (right) of the tank?

Regarding the UV unit, yup the Australian unit I have is actually market as a combined UV-Ozone unit. Regarding pre and post skimmer, UV filerts, we have some 50 micron canister/sock type filter units in the plan. Any thoughtson the size? We picked 50 micron ostensibly to let any live plankton through although I'm not sure the measurement is correct. Also I suppose if thelive fellas get through, so will the dead ones!

Mike, you suggest a carbon tray in the sump. We had planned to use a 16 inch 2 meter tank with backwash. My thinking was that this would allow me tomore easinly bypass the carbon when water chemistry doesn't require it. Any thouhts?


John: Your thoughts on a recirculation system are taken although I'm not sure Iunderstand exactlyhow the system you suggest would work. I am concerned however, that there is adequate water movement both for practical and asthetic reasopns. I love the look of large anenomes swaying in a moderate current! Does the sysetm you have in mind work off a seperate tank or storage area in the sump or just circulate the water already in the tank? Sorry but I'm still pretty stupid about thhese things.

Regarding filter bags in the sump, I had planned to instal such bages as a pre-filter at the overflow outlet from the tank. there is some 2.5 meters or more between the outflow and the sump manhole so presumeably enough room for both a pre-filter arrangement and a gravity fed skimmer.

Scooty/Nikki/John: all points taken. The tank is actually constructed out of 20cm thick steel reinforced concrete with a setting agent. The water proofing I got from Ace Hardware and is represented as being bio friendly and suitable for fish ponds. We put on about 4 coats. The top of the tank has a 1.5 meter high access room running the length of the tank. The top and long side of that 'room' is made of clear glass but will have some sort of aluminium roller shutters to contole heat and protect at night. The whole thing is ventilated with fans moving air from end to end. The viewing panel is made out of 30mm laminated and tempered glass. WE are confident that it is strong enough but alas at that thickness the glass has far too green a hue for my liking! Unfortunately, I was not able to source truely clear glass or acrylic here. I am hoping that the colour and light from inside the tank will help neutralize any colour in the glass but this remains one of my biggest concerns!

The glass itself weighs 3 tons and sits on a bedding of the same sort of white plastic material that kitchen cutting boards a made from. In the vertical plane, the glass is sandwiched between 5mm sheets of milky acrylic and then a neoprene type rubber as you suggest up to about 2 cm before the glass is exposed from the concrete buttress. The acrylic sheets and neoprene are themself sealed with silcon 2cm deep where they are exposed to tank water. Certainly there is no place where the glass makes contact with concrete.

I'll go off and take some pics of the sump and equipment rooms. I gotta say, its nice to get all this input. I was feeling a bit isolated and insane here on my own!

Barry

 

[ldrhawke]

Barry,

What would really help are your present plans or drawings on your present thoughts on setting up you system,in addition to photos of the area you plan on installing pumps and filters.

In my recirculation pump comments were based on using a separate system that did not empty into the sump. The problem you can easily get into when you dump too much water into the sump is micro bubbles. If you pipe a recirculation system, so it pulls directly out of the tank and pumps right back into it, it allows for much higher flow rates. With a 4500 G tank 400 to 500 GPM is not unreasonable to keep the waste from settling out and coral happy, infact, 1000 plus gpm wouldn't be to much in a tank your size. At that rate you will simply get a gentle swaying of soft coral. I use a higher rate of flow to tank ratio than that. I pump 30 to 40 GPM on a 60 G system using a Dolphin 3000 for recirculation time for 2 hours on and 4 hours off. It is easier to throttle a system back by partially closing a valve than not having enough flow to start.

I think you will have a difficult time getting enough flow out of your filtration system and not have a lot of micro bubbles to contend with.

The recirculation system installtion can be over the top of tank. Simply drop two 2 or 3" pvc pipes in the tank back corners for the suction and discharge. Put a large stainer on the suction and a bunch of "T's" on the inlet. Paint the PVC black or the same color as the tank walls. Using flow enhancing venturi on the outlets woudn't hurt if you went with the lower end of the flow rate pump.

 

[Barry Grossman]

John,

I have autocad drawings of the plans. Are you able to view AutooCad format and if so, how shall I sen the file-its over 1mb?

I've attached a few JPEG's of the canopy area and sump to give you a better idea of the tanks structure. There are still obstructions in the way so pleqase ignore them as best you can. (E.G. pipes in the sump and rebar blocking the sump manhole)

You will see that the sump is actually quite shallow-about 24 inches-although clsoe to 20ft long.

Regards...Barry

 

[Barry Grossman]

Bali Tank

A few more pics:

Barry

 

[mojoreef]

Alrighty then. Barry great project. I would imagine that you have had professional help with either the design and or installation of the tank structure itself, including the glass set up. So I dont think I should spend much time on that aspect, but insteed lets concentrate on flow, filtration and the add on systems.
So As per lighting In think you are in good shape, I hope the system you have has the ability to raise and lower for maintence.
As per heat problems, I would address it if the problem arises. You have a lot of concrete and steel in the system and some depth and good water volume. I would run the system using a fan system on the sump at first, if it doesnt play then you can look at a chiller or simular as an add on in the sump room.
Flow could get complicated, actually so complicated I would revert to simplistic. Tanks of this size and depth are way to hard to get absolute coverage with conventional closed loops and so on. I would look at using dump systems (surge tanks) I would place a 50 gallon drum on either end on your your upper lighting enclosure. Use the water from the sump to fill one 50 gallon drum, once it fills you can have a Motorized valve switch it over to the other dum, while that drum is filling the first drum is dumping. I would not dump through in pipe but through about 4 so that coverage is good. After the second drum fills it would then dump the same way but from the opposite side. With the piping you already have in place I would create a closed loop but would just use them for normal flow patterns and not the main circulation.
As per the coating you used I dont know if would only rely on that alone, I would look to epoxy coatings and go thick. Thier is also a few cemitious coats available to. I will try to get some brand names for ya.
On the rock and such I would not stack and pack the rock, your going to have to build a racking system to hold the rock for placement. Thier is a fiberglass racking system that you could use and it works very well and is as strong as hell. This will allow for less rock to have to be used and better stacking which will mean better flow between the rocks themselves. It also makes for a more stable system overall. This also might be a good area for that closed loop system?? possible behind the rocks.

Ok got to go to work, I will come back a little later. See if you can export the cad file as a jpeg or bitmap. then email it to me at [email protected]


mike

 

[ldrhawke]

John,

I have autocad drawings of the plans. Are you able to view AutooCad format and if so, how shall I sen the file-its over 1mb?

I've attached a few JPEG's of the canopy area and sump to give you a better idea of the tanks structure. There are still obstructions in the way so pleqase ignore them as best you can. (E.G. pipes in the sump and rebar blocking the sump manhole)

You will see that the sump is actually quite shallow-about 24 inches-although clsoe to 20ft long.

Regards...Barry

Save the AutoCad files in a DXF/DWG format and send them in that format so I can open them with VectorWorks on a MAC computer...we use MACS in my company. File size shouldn't be a problem. Do the drawings show piping and flow?

Some nice concrete work. You are spending some bucks baby . Let's try an get it right the first time. That under tank sump is nice for getting rid of micro bubbles, but will be tough to work on anything in it. What sort of space do you actually have for an equipment room to install the skimmers, filters, and pumps; etc?

From my experience so far in reef keeping......the two most important things are high flow rates and over sizing the skimmer. Under sizing and cutting costs in these areas will be a slow death to a reef tank. It may work all right for awhile but it will slowly go bad. Concentrate on that to start. The rest will fall into place.

 

[ldrhawke]

I think both Mike and I have the said the same thing in a different way. Water movement in the system is critical. I have to disagree with Mike on the 50 g surge tanks....only if you turned over and dumped 50 g into a 4500 g tank, would it cause adequate flow. Opening even a large 6" valve on the bottom of a 50 g surge tank will not add enough mixing action. I don't beleive from the photos you have room to add larger surge tanks.

I think large volume pumps are the only way to go at this stage of the project. Here is another approach that makes for easier piping. There are a lot of good large low head/ high flow propeller pump industrial submersible pumps on the market. Example:High flow Submersible Propeller Pumps . Two of these could be dropped in your sump, keeping a third as back up spare. Pipe them up with 6" pvc discharge all the way into the tank. One pump would feed on end and the other the other end. The flow could be alternated every 30 minutes by running both pumps and hour on and an hour off and overe lapthe on/off period by 30 minutes so both pumps are running at the same time for 30 minutes. They are easy to change out and install. You only have discharge piping to contend with them. The tank return to the sump can then be a simple tank over flow. When piping from the sump you will need a vacuum breaker at the top to keep the system from syphoning back into the sump whne the pump is turned off.

I like Mike's idea of mounting the rock. A couple of free standing structures that are accessible from all sides, and good circulation, and that the fish could swim around would work good. The problem is the size and weight of the rock that you will need, so as not to not look out of place in such a large tank, will be a problem in handling. I picture a number of large 2' to 4' pieces of live rock. They may need to be lowered in from the outside with a crane. You may need to modify your outside roof to get them in the tank.

And I'll bet you thought this was going to be easy :lol:

 

[Barry Grossman]

John...Nah never thought it would be easy. In fact the plan is to do just that - use a few very large pieces of live rock, perhaps slice them in two and stand them away from the back wall of the tank. In any case, they can be lowered in from outside using a block and tackle and large steel 6meter tripod we have on hand.

Barry

 

[Scooterman]

When we were at the Keys, their aquariums were supplied directly from the ocean, using lagoons & large piping (6" or 8") along with hi volume pumps, more on the industrial side.

 

[ldrhawke]

Barry,

You had previously mentioned using a bag filter w/ pressure vessel. My experience, and years I ago I had a company that sold them, they blind very quickly, especially the finer micro felt bags, and need to be replaced very often. I would use the nylon mess bags and if you want to filter the fine stuff, insert a couple of hands full polyester fiber fill; sold at WalMart in the fabric department, into the 800 micron monafilament mesh bag. Or a similar stuffing that you can find where you are. It is a cheap pillow stuffing fiber and a great fine micron media that you simply toss and don't even bother to wash.

An open bag system using the special celcon plastic adapter heads is a much more friendly approach with a reef tank. It is cheap and you can install multiple bags this way. I have attached an idea to be used over the open area just over your sump and against the tank wall.

The system is self regulation and only uses the pressure developed from a couple of foot of stand pipe on the right of the drawing. As the bags start to blind the flow then goes over the top of the stand pipe and into the sump. The stand pipe only need to be 3 or 4' high. As the bags start to blind the flow is wholley or partially bypassed around the bag. You know it is time to clean if you see flow coming out of the stand pipe.

The bags can quickly be changed out by hand without the need for any tools in less than 10 seconds. These bags should be empltied and cleanced daily otherwise you start dumping nitrates back into the tank. Being able to do it quickly and easily will be appreciated by the person with the job. The bags have a built in poly plastic ring on the top that slips over the celcon head and sets back on top of the adapter. The celcon head and plastic ring in the bag keeps the bag from coming off and hold pressure. http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.categories/ssid/226

Added note: the top outside elbow on tank outlet should be replaced with a "T" open to atmosphere to break any syphon and allow it to be strickly an over flow to the bag filters. The 4" pvc down legs on the bottom of the "H" are only for support to hold the bags up to a more convienent level to remove and capped on the bottom?

 

[Scooterman]

Cad drawing of the structure! From the looks of it, I see a sub tank (sump) below the main tank. Also I was able to get a better idea of how the lighting system will work along with natural light. This is going to be a very nice Reef Aquarium; I think the sub systems & flow will probably be the next challenges like Mike already said this will be interesting to see as it develops.

 

[mojoreef]

I have to disagree with Mike on the 50 g surge tanks....only if you turned over and dumped 50 g into a 4500 g tank, would it cause adequate flow. Opening even a large 6" valve on the bottom of a 50 g surge tank will not add enough mixing action. I don't beleive from the photos you have room to add larger surge tanks.

Thats the way I like it John, Different opinions generate thought and that is always a good thing!!!

The reason I suggested the surge tank is because it is a simple and tried and true method for creating very good flow. With virtually no maintence. Charles set one up at the 9000 Gallon reef tank in hawaii back in the mid 80's Now it is a 200 gallon surge but a bigger tank also. From what I remember one side goes off every three minutes and goes throuogh 6 inch piping to the tank and has been doing this for like 20 years. They used to set both off at once every once and awhile to churn things up good to.

Mike

 

[Barry Grossman]

Bali Tank

Thats the way I like it John, Different opinions generate thought and that is always a good thing!!!

Yup, friendly and informed disagreement. That too is how I like things as without it and maybe even a little friction, its is not possible to get the best result!

My own sense of ignorance on these subjects is both blinding and palpable so its all good for me! All I know is that when I started this project I worked out the only a few things would stand between failure and success:

1. Water chemistry;
2. Water movement;
3. Water temperature;
4. Lighting;
5. Coreect stocking.

Now I'm madly tryiing to sort out a program for each of these considerations. the lighting and stocking issues are pretty much in hand although only time will tell. The first three are the current challenge and all of the discussion y'all been posting is helping me focus on all of the practical issues and corresponding alternate solutions.

On the water movement question, what do ya think about using a hybride system: ie say a 70 or 80 gallon surge tank on each side with a few well placed but hidden power heads behind the live rock? The combioned effect of such a well placed system and the returning sump water via alternating water jets will presumably produce a fair bit of controlled movement.

On a more general note apropos comments about the 'burden' of maintence bear in mind that this tank will have an employee doing daily maintence as a full time job. Its not that I'm wealthy - far from it! Its just that the standard wage here is only about $60 per month so even if a pay a good man double the normal wage maintence still works out pretty economically.

Barry

 

[Maxx]

My own sense of ignorance on these subjects is both blinding and palpable

I love the fact that you post this statement up, and then later use
"Y'all" in a sentence.....correctly.

As far as the "hybrid" of water movement systems. I don't see why you couldnt do it, I think you just need to keep in mind cost vs effectiveness. For a system this size, you need to move a fair amount of water. So the type of power heads you're talking about are going to have to be very similar (performance wise) to the larger Tunze Streams.....and you're gonna need several of them. For something like this I would almost reccomend using some sort of closed loop system using several different closed loops working together, or look into air lifts....there is a gentleman in my local reef club who has a 5000, (no typo...five thousand) gallon tank he built in his basement. He uses a sweetwater blower, (No idea what h/p rating) and air lifts to move the water in his tank. It works pretty well from what I saw...

In reference to maintainence....
There is husbandry type tank maintenance, and then there is mechanical maintenance. When Mike is suggestiong the surge tanks due to low maintenance, I believe he's referring to mechanical maintenance. The Carlson surge type devices work because of physics...so they are more or less bullet proof. Granted you will have to keep the feed pump running, but that is less maintenance than dealing with a large closed loop system.
I like the idea of getting someone to maintain your tank for you though.
Nick

 

[ldrhawke]

............... Its just that the standard wage here is only about $60 per month so even if a pay a good man double the normal wage maintence still works out pretty economically.

Barry

The cheap labor changes my design economics totally.........I think you should go with one of those paddle wheel lift pumps with a man peddling, the kind that they use in irrigating rice paddies, for all your water movement. :razz: Either that or use a bucket brigade line from the ocean

 

[Barry Grossman]

Hardy har har.... Actually I was just making the point in response to concerns about high maintenence pre amd post skimmer filtering. That said, now that you mention it , might be kind of quaint using a rice padi padel wheel type set up to move water around although perhaps a bit unrelaible.