Barry Grossmans big tank

[Elmo18]

This is an awesome undertaking Barry Nice photos so far.

Do you know Ilham Cindra ? I see you are in Bali, Indonesia. He is Pt. Lintas Antar Nusa. The farm, as it was awhile ago in the early 1990s, is in Pulau Serangan (Turtle Island).

My family used to work with him back in Indonesia.

- Elmo

 

[ldrhawke]

Barry,

Just curious. What is the cost of electicity in Bali? In the US it varies widely depending on how it is produced. Here I would estimate from .04/KWH to .15/KWH depending on if it is produced by hydro-electric, wind, nuclear, coal, gas, oil, or burning waste.

 

[mojoreef]

1. Water chemistry;
2. Water movement;
3. Water temperature;
4. Lighting;

Barry to keep this going lets tackle one at a time and move on. SO pick one and tell us what you have so far??

Mike

 

[Barry Grossman]

John,

Well I don't righly know the 'real' price of electricity except to say that in theory its reasonable. Theory aside, the problems with power here are manifold! They include, in no particluar order:
1. the average house can't draw enough electricity to run a normal toaster. That is, a typical house can only draw 850 watts in current! Those who want more must first negotiate with and pay the utility company for increased current. Part of any such deal (fair enough too) is that large users subdise normal huoseholders! The poblem is that its expensive to upgrade and ususally involves paying for infrastructure normally covered by the utility company elsewhere: e.g. sub-station or transformer. In our case, we can draw up to 60,000 watts but had to pay a one off $10,000 fee for the increase. Even at 60,000 watts, once all the A/C, lighting & equipment is counted, we will often find ourselves a bit short on juice!
2. The official rate per KWH is not generally the real rate since here there are always hidden charges or fees that need to be paid in order to encourage people to do their job. Elsewhere this phenomenon is called corruption. Here its just a fact of life!
3. Even with an increase current allocation, the electricity actually supplied is terribly unreliable in that wild voltage swings and power outages are the norm. The current here is notionaly 220v but the current actually drops at peak load times to as little as 120V! The solution, a bunch more money to put the entire building on a 110kw voltage stabilizer. That still leaves outages which are a weekly and sometimes daily inconvenience. The solution in our case was to instal two silent generators: one for the building and one for the aquarium itself.

Barry

 

[ldrhawke]

Barry,

Good information......obviously a surge tank system with a smaller continuous operating pump, maymakes more sense in your situation where power needs to be allocated closely, rather than larger circulating pumps.

Lighting will probably be your biggest energy consumer. Ever give any thought to light tubes?

I agree with Mike....let's take one item at a time.

Your source for saltwater and water changes? I would imagine a boat with a holding tank and trucking. Then pumping out of the truck. Unless you have a good source for treated and filtered, RO/DI fresh water; using fans for cooling could cause too much evaporation and be more expensive than a conventional freon cooling system.

I take it in Bali the problem is cooling, not heating.

 

[Barry Grossman]

Bali Tank

Sorry, I was 3/4 of the way thorugh a posting yesterday when the electricty failed and the computer crashed. Ironic given that I had earlier posted a note on power probelms here! Then after that, we had another earthquake (only 5.3 on the R scale). This too is an issue for tank design but more on that another time.

Yes, I would love to focus on the broad headings one-by-one, starting with water chemistry. I assume the term to embrace both in-tank biological filtration as well as external mechanical filtration and all other processes/additives effecting chemistry. Can we do the in-tank stuff first?

We've allowed some 25cm between the bottom of the tank and the start of the viewing panel to lay a base of live sand. Is this (25cm) adequate, too much or too little? Given the size of the tank and the fact that this is not a pure Berlin system, I thought we would forego a plenum. Does anyone have any thoughts on the subject. This seems to be one of those topics that not much is said about?

The tank water will be sourced directly from the sea through the same suppliers used by the three operations that export live aquarium stock here in Bali. Unlike them, however, we planned to zap incoming water with an Australian UV system that claims to utilize a combined UV/Ozone technology and then cylce it through the filtration system before introducing it to the tank. I suppose this will nock off any live plankton but still seems a good idea. Anyone think otherwise?

Top ups will be from well water run throgh a RO system.

Apart from the above, I remain unsure about creating the reefscape. I expect to have 2 or 3 large chunks of live rock to use as foundation material, in addition to endless amounts of smaller live rock. I had thought that we would slice these in two and stand the 'flat' side some 15 to 20 cm back from the rear tank wall so as not to tanke up too much tank volume for a given height of rock.. That said, will this compromise the anaerobic bacteria in the rock and, if so, should I worry about this?

Previousy, a fibre glass stacking system was metioned in this thread. Does anyone have any thoughts on this or other sytems for creating the reefscape. I have thought that tubular acrylic drilled into the rock might be a handy way of doing it but the truth is I just dunno!

Finally, does anyone have any thoughts about using natural limestone boulders, in addition to live rock, to create the reefscape? Is it naive to think that through some miraculous process of osmosis, the calicium content of the tank water would be enhanced by the high calcium content of the limestone?Any other thoughts on in-tank structure, media or processes that impact chemistry? I'm sure there is much that I havn't considered.

Barry

 

[mojoreef]

Alrighty Barry let start with chemistry and filtration.
The use of natural water in your situation is a great plan. I dont think I would zap the new water though, if collected away from population I would take advantage of planktonic forms to start with. You can run the uv/ozone in line off you sump to get disinfect the water after they have a shot at it. Make sure you have your sock system or something simular to catch the critters that have been zapped, this might be a good place for a settling tank/sump structure.
25 cm is plenty for the substraight if that is the route you want to go. Do understand that with a large bioload in time you will need to deal with it (clean or replace) so concider that when laying it down.
Using limestone that has been exposed to runoff means that it is probibly loaded with terrestrial phosphate so personally I would not use it. As time goes by calcium and carbonate will become an issue, so that should be something to deal with. Concidering the heat issues in Bali I would imagine you are going to get a good deal of evaporation, I think in your case the use of kalk is the best way to go about it. You can get it cheap from commercal sources and it can be kept in a drum outside the building.
On the racking system, I know the one I forwarded to you can be expensive. Here is what I would do if it were me. Depending on the overall look that you want to have (full coverage, trench look, high oneside sloping down to nothig and so on). I would gather your rock and cut it in half with you tile or band saw and glue the halves to the back wall using epoxy, every so often or as your design desires I would attach a section of the fiberglass racking so that it protrudes out into the tank, from thier you can add rock to it to create that demensional look. You can get very creative with this making swim throughs, caves and so on. On the floor of the tank you can come up from the bottom with a few island columns. The combination of the two should give the tank full coverage and still allow for alot of swim area for the fish. It should also drastically reduce the amount of racking needed.



Mike

 

[ldrhawke]

Ditto on Mike's comments.

In my thinking, the question of what sand on the bottom, if any, an/or how much, in part depends on how heavy a fish load you plan on keeping and your final design of water flow to put the waste collecting on the bottom back into suspension for removal.

I'm not sure if I would go to all the trouble of slicing large pieces of live rock in half. With the depth of your tank it looks like the real limiting factor is going to be the width of opening on top. I assume you have an access ladder and adequate width of access for a man with scuba gear.....seriously

I would simply find the tallest and largest pieces of live rock you can find that will still fit though the opening you have on top and possibly slice off the bottom so they are self supporting and can stand up without the need for any support. You have a very large tank and plenty of depth for any size rock you can slip through the top opening. I agree with Barry on sticking with live rock and not adding possible phosphate laden limestone.

I picture some very large chunks of live rock. I think using dowels to hold the rock pieces together for stacking is a good idea. Careful use of small amounts of concrete mortar will also work; just give it time to cure before putting any life in the tank. People have been making their own live rock using concrete for years. The small amount of lime leaching out at first would be no different than dosing kalk.

In place of concrete mortar, you could use the same dowel idea on the bottom of the large center pieces of rock for making four 12" legs to support and stabilize the rock. From the stand point of the dowel size hole you would need to drill, I would keep it as small in diameter, to allow easy drilling and reduce stress on the rock. For strength, I would use pieces of scrap stainless pipe from any boat yard or marina waste dump site, 1/2" to 1" pipe or tube size. This could allow it to rest off bottom.

Another approach is to simply cut the rock flat on the bottom so it is self supporting and set it off the bottom with three or four concrete blocks as a base, that would be covered with sand, and again use concrete motar.

It is important that what ever structure you put in the tank, stabilize it so it can't get knocked over by your scuba diver maintaining the tank or by earth quakes, and end up falling over onto the front glass.

 

[ldrhawke]

........... Concidering the heat issues in Bali I would imagine you are going to get a good deal of evaporation, I think in your case the use of kalk is the best way to go about it. You can get it cheap from commercal sources and it can be kept in a drum outside the building.
...................Mike

To add to Mike's idea for dosing kalk and to keep the guy you train from accidentially over dosing kalk, I would set up a simple Nelson Reactor using a 55 gal. plastic tank and install a cheap MaxiJet submersible pump on a timer. I would set the pump time to come on every couple of hours for a few minutes to stirup the lime. That way he would only need to drop a couple of cups of line per week into the 55 gal. drum to feed kalk.

I would then set up two solenoid valves in series, for fail safe, for automatically feeding RO/DI water into the Neslon Reactor controlled by a sump level float switch. The Nelson Reactor would over flow into the sump or top of the tank.

I would also install a hand flow control valve in the RO/DI feed water line to limit the drip rate, and set the maximum drip rate, then remove the valve handle and hide it; this would be done so that if the float switch controlling the RO/DI water ever malfunctioned or was improperly set, the drip rate would be limited and you couldn't over dose lime or dilute the SG with RO/DI water.

 

[mojoreef]

It is important that what ever structure you put in the tank, stabilize it so it can't get knocked over by your scuba diver maintaining the tank or by earth quakes, and end up falling over onto the front glass.

That is why I said to cut the rocks in half and attach them to the walls. It will give the illusion of demensional aquascaping with out worrying about the diver knocking over piles or creating avalanches

To add to Mike's idea for dosing kalk and to keep the guy you train from accidentially over dosing kalk, I would set up a simple Nelson Reactor using a 55 gal. plastic tank and install a cheap MaxiJet submersible pump on a timer. I would set the pump time to come on every couple of hours for a few minutes to stirup the lime. That way he would only need to drop a couple of cups of line per week into the 55 gal. drum to feed kalk.

You could I guess but I figure he is going to go through at least 20 gallons a day, or a drum every 3 days. I would just have one drum flling with ro/di constant and use the other for manual kalk, I think timing the kalk stir and addition of kalk powder would be to tough to get right at this pace. Make sure you get a commercial ro/di unit your oing to need it.


Mike

 

[ldrhawke]

..............

The tank water will be sourced directly from the sea through the same suppliers used by the three operations that export live aquarium stock here in Bali. .................

Top ups will be from well water run throgh a RO system.

............Barry

I'd consider also installing a large outside storage tank for sea water that can be filled by a delivery truck on a regular basis by your supplier, 1,000 to 2,000 gallon tank if you had room. I'd set it up so it is easily pumped into your sump for water changes. This would allow you to make regular water changes and quickly adjust for upsets, especially while the tank is becoming stabilized.

I added a water soften to my home water system and it appears to greatly extend the life of all filters including the RO membrane, by knocking out hardness before it reaches the RO unit. It may be worth considering if you don't already have a softener installed.

On another topic....the sump under your tank. What did you have planned for it? A little creative thinking on baffle placement to increase carrying velocity and to reduce velocity for settling, could make it a lot easier to settle out waste solids and remove them. One large long tank is going to make collecting solids that settle out and removing them a little difficult. I know from experience.....

I designed and built a Koi Pond inside my office building which ran down the full length of the building entrance atrium. It was a long trough like your sump, only 120' long by 30"deep by 5' wide. The water flowed into a sump at the end the photo was shot, and then it was pumped back to a water fall which was out side my office window, flowing from one end of the pond to the other. The carrying velocity was too low and a lot of fish waste solids always settled in the main tank and not in the sump at the end of the pond, where I could open a drain valve and flush the waste into the sewer. In my case the low velocity through the pond made maintenance of the pond more difficult. In your reef tank the solids settling out in the sump wll allow for nitrate build up in the water. Removing solids is always a primary design consideration for successful reef tank chemistry and keeping algae growth under control.

 

[Barry Grossman]

Ok, it all sounds good and all points taken. My only question is this: it is not at all problematic to slice the live rock but do I really want to fix it straight to the back of the tank Mike or will this impede water circulation?

John...the reason I had planned to cut the live rock is too allow larger pieces (i.e. more height in the vertical plane- without taking up so much non viewable space in the horizontal plane.

The Kalk sounds a good idea and I will nix any thoughts of using limestone.

Barry

 

[Barry Grossman]

Bali Tank

Once again, thanks everyone for sharing your experience.

Continuing with the basic water chemistry stuff, despite the heaps and heaps of great input from everyone, a number of general design issues relating to the out-of-tank mechanical filtration system remain:

1. Skimming: Based on all the previous posts, the main skimmer will be a large (read tall) counter current type skimmer using some form of diffuser, tricked out with the various devices previously suggested. That said, there seems to be a view that it is hard to overskim the scum from skank so I continue to wonder if it would not be a good idea to use a first stage gravity fed skimmer between the overflow and sump entry point, as well as a second skimmer on the other side of the sump. (see thumb which shows the drop from the overflow to the sump entry point) ) In that regard, I wonder if any one has experience with a environemental tower type skimmer used this way. (see thumb)

2. I very much like John's idea of using an in-ump system of sock type pre and post skimmer filters. More generally, the effective sump volume for this tank is only about 3000 litres, less whatever volume is lost to media and/or in sump equipment.

3. It has been suggested that an in-sump active carbon filtration system using trays may be suitable. I had planned on using a 16 inch by 6ft PVC tank with a backwash for activated carbon filtration. My thinking was that this would leave more room in the sump and let us bypass carbon filtration when the tank water chemistry suggests that it is not needed. Does anyone have a view on the merits of continuous versus selective active carbon filtration?

4. In Indonesia many aquarium enthusiasts use a filtration media called active Ziolite in much the same way as activated carbon. The purpose, however, is different in that this media has been described to me as a natural PH stabilizer. Has anyone ever heard of or used this mineral? Based on advice I recieved here, I was thinking of having a second PVC filter tank filled with this media.

5. I can use either 1.5 or 2 inch polypropolyne pipe for the tank primary plumbing. This pipe uses a welding system for joining sections and fittings and is sold under then ame 'Vesbo.' Anyway, I assume a lower pressure system is preferable to a higher pressure system. I also assume that I ought to try and turn the tank contents through the mechanical filtration system every 3 to 4 hours which implies an average load of around 5000 litres an hour. Any thoughts on pipe diameter??

6. I am sure there are many issues I've overlooked or just not yet had time to bring up so please feel free to raise or coment on any issues that come to mind.

Barry

 

[mojoreef]

Ok, it all sounds good and all points taken. My only question is this: it is not at all problematic to slice the live rock but do I really want to fix it straight to the back of the tank Mike or will this impede water circulation?

Barry the concept is to create the look of continious aquascaping with out having to stack the rock up so high. Using the racks in certain places will give it demension, then a couple of well place Island scaping and it should complete a really neat 3d look. As per how it effects circulation, I dont see a problem.

I wonder if any one has experience with a environemental tower type skimmer used this way. (see thumb)

Yes I have run many different styles of this skimmer. It requires a pressure rated pump to drive the water hard across the bioballs, good skimmer but requires a pressure rated pump. My last skimmer was a etss 2500.
Personally I would build in a air diffusor skimmer right into the first chamber of the sump and gravity feed it from the main tank, that way no pump needed. As per the sock I would only run it at the back end of the uv/ozone system.

Does anyone have a view on the merits of continuous versus selective active carbon filtration?

you can do either, in the early days of the tank I would run in continious and then just do it as needed. Do you have a seperate room off the side of the sump?? If so then yes run it out of sump.

In Indonesia many aquarium enthusiasts use a filtration media called active Ziolite in much the same way as activated carbon. The purpose, however, is different in that this media has been described to me as a natural PH stabilizer. Has anyone ever heard of or used this mineral? Based on advice I recieved here, I was thinking of having a second PVC filter tank filled with this media.

Thier are many different forms of this mineral, mostly it removes amonia but thier are others that can bind other things.
Base your pipe sizing on the pumps that you are using in each application. If the pump has a 2 inch outlet them use 2 inch.
Barry the concept for most of this filtration equipment is to get rid of waste and detritus, a good skimmer, carbon and the uv/ozone unit are pretty close to good enough. The more you add the more maintence and complex your going to make it. I would suggest concentrate on making the equipment we have discussed prime time.


Mike

 

[piercho]

Finally, does anyone have any thoughts about using natural limestone boulders, in addition to live rock, to create the reefscape?

Reef rubble and limestone are both mainly composed of calcium carbonate, with other *stuff* mixed in the matrix. Some limestones are nearly pure, and are the source of the calcium hydroxide we call "lime" or "kalk". Other limestones have a large content of *stuff*. That stuff can include iron, magnesium, and phosphate. Beyond this observation, I can't contribute much to your decision. I could speculate, but in no way accurately predict, how this *stuff* will effect your individual tank as it slowly enters the water column. Besides, each of his have their own goals to meet. I like growing sandbed plants, so Seachem's "Grey Coast" calcite substrate is interesting to me because of its high magnesium and iron content which should be released in the low pH regions of a deep sand band. A different reefer would avoid Grey Coast (or a DSB) for exactly this reason. I will make a personal observation on using "base" rock as well as "live" rock. Over time, I have grown to resent all that rock in my tank, and regret putting so much in. IMO, "base" rock is a waste of precious space. If I were you, I would confine my selection to a few good pieces of live rock, cut to conform to the back wall, arranged as pleasingly as possible and secured in place. I guess in effect I'm agreeing with everything Mike proposed, and am just adding my personal perspective.

We've allowed some 25cm between the bottom of the tank and the start of the viewing panel to lay a base of live sand. Is this (25cm) adequate, too much or too little? Given the size of the tank and the fact that this is not a pure Berlin system, I thought we would forego a plenum. Does anyone have any thoughts on the subject. This seems to be one of those topics that not much is said about?

Um...is that last sentence intended as a joke? I hesitate to even bring up bottom substrates in threads anymore, because people have grown so passionate about them that bombs lobbed from the peanuts gallery tend to send the threads to hell in a hurry. Depending on your viewpoint, 25cm (10") of sand could be either a useful nutrient buffer where waste is recycled, or a stinking reservoir of filth. In my opinion, it will become both. Anyway, 10" gives you ample space to use a Jaubert (gravel) system with a plenum, or a just put fine sand straight down on the bottom. If you opt to not use a substrate or just have a shallow vacuumed substrate, I think that the water flow of the system should be designed to assist solid waste to flow to the sump/skimmer for removal, which lines up with what Mike and Idrhawke are encouraging. If you elect to use a substrate, I'd can list sources that discuss functional attributes like depth and constituency. My opinion is that you should pick a bottom substrate that is appropriate for the biotope you are creating. I keep a lagoonal tank, I have a deep sand bed in the tank. IMO, a fore reef or reef flat would not.

I can use either 1.5 or 2 inch polypropolyne pipe for the tank primary plumbing. This pipe uses a welding system for joining sections and fittings and is sold under then ame 'Vesbo.'

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Vesbo. If its non-metalic and rated for potable systems, its probably OK. My favorite rigid plumbing material for pipe over 1.5" diameter (non-pressure) is ABS. ABS is easy to get in larger sizes, sweep fittings are typical and cheap, and it can be adapted to PVC fittings using transition cement (a little tricky). For less than 1.5" diameter or pressure applications, the best pipe is flex PVC aka "SPA flex", IMO. The main idea is not to let plumbing resistance rob your pump power or flow capacity (gravity returns). So, big pipe diameters and soft bends (sweep fittings) are best.

Anyway, I assume a lower pressure system is preferable to a higher pressure system.

That depends on your purpose. If you are just recirculating water with the pump with a low head, yes low pressure. If you need to add energy to the water; like to lift it up 7 meters for a surge tank, drive eductors in the tank, or drive a mazzei to feed ozone to a skimmer (just can't get off the ozone!), you have to generate at least 10 psig.

turn the tank contents through the mechanical filtration system every 3 to 4 hours which implies an average load of around 5000 litres an hour. Any thoughts on pipe diameter??

Wow, thats really low for turnover rate, IMO. 5000L/Hr->1250G/Hr->20 G/min; did I estimate that right? That will not do! I realize that you want to keep electrical costs controlled on a tank this size, but you have to generate enough flow to "breath" the tank to atmosphere, and "breath" the organisms dependant on flushing flow with the tank. As a comparison, I turn my entire tank volume over every 1.5 minutes, and I'm still short of generating appropriate flow to model a lagoonal system throughout the tank.

My opinion is that you need to spend more time considering your water flow. I think that the lowest turnover option is to do what Mike suggested earlier, and go with a surged system to generate periodic random/high water movement. You've got what, 3000L->750G in the sump? Lets consider that you use 500G for a surge from an insulated tank(s) on the roof. Nothing fancy, just a bomb-proof gravity Carlson surge fed down with the biggest pipes that your overflows can handle. If you dump the surge once every 5 minutes, that's 100G/min->6000G/Hr->24000L/Hr for the return pump(s), right? More frequent surges would be "more better". Did you post how many linear inches of overflow you have? How much buffer volume (inches from the overflow to the tank top) do you have to help absorb a surge if you use a surge? Is spray or noise a consideration? Maybe you posted all this before and I missed it. Anyway, I don't think 5000 L/Hr will get you by, unless I don't understand what the goal is with this tank. But I'm not a big-tank guy, maybe I misunderstand the dynamics here.

 

[NaH2O]

Barry - how's the project coming along?

 

[Barry Grossman]

Well we're progressing....overtime, overbudget and basically its driving me mad! The glass is in and all will be sealed over the next week. after that its the plumbing and equipment. Then the live rock and water. etc. That said, I'm still more than baddled about the question of how frequently the tank contents need to be run through the skimmer. I suppose I'll just make the biggest skimmer I can and see what happens. That said, the specs on large commercial skimmers imply that turning the tank every 3 to 4 hours should suffice so I hope this works out ok.

 

[Scooterman]

Don't we all go over budget & I think at times we can go a little Mad also, I hate it when water is everywhere lol. Looking good Barry, thanks for the update, I know once it is done it will be well worth it. As for as the skimmer, talk to mike, seems like his 1/4 the size skimmer you will need works well, maybe a larger one can be made of similar design.

 

[ldrhawke]

Don't go over budget with a Reef Tank....that sounds like an oxymoron to me.

I think Reef Tank and Over budget may be synonymous.

 

[highlands]

build a wood box to set the compressor into and make the top of the box the size of a std furnace filter; so you can simply set a high quality rectangular HEPA type AC filter, the pleated type by 3M, on top of it to filter the air.

I've done a lot of work with filter applications for both compression and vacuum. One small trick is to use a large area low speed horizontal entanglement. This has been shown to be highly effective and have minimal resistance to air movement and reduced clogging. This reduces the frequency of filter maintenances as well as making maximum use of the compressor's power. It also dampens the sound of the compressor some. This can be applied nicely to aquarium filters.

Build a two chamber box. Air flows through the side of champer one into chamber one and then through to chamber two where the air compressor is located. Chamber 1 on the end is open except for having some sort of grating like 1/8" mesh over it to keep critters out. Fill chamber one with a number (e.g., 10) of the above mentioned furnace filters standing upright on edge side by side. Have a lid on the box so you can easily open it to do maintenance. 1/2" plywood CDX is handy for building box. Seal cracks. Gasket lid.

The filtering can be improved by having the later stages of the filter have a denser filter material. A large surface area helps overcome the pressure loss of tighter weaves.

To further dampen sound of compressor make the box of two very different material densities and mount it on a soft pad. You can also put the whole thing "somewhere else". It is easy to pipe air. Put it somewhere that the noise isn't an issue, away from the public space and with good clean fresh air to start with and the filter will improve it.