Being Conscientious

[NaH2O]

What does being a conscientious aquarist mean to you? I think everyone has different viewpoints. Someone may advise another hobbyist never to buy a Moorish Idol (for example), yet the same individual may pay $1000 for an Acan (or whatever the hot coral of the month is). Anthony Calfo wrote an article recently about trends in the hobby and being conscientious (however, I disagree with his comment about skimmers ). Is it more conscientious to not buy the difficult and starving fish that's doomed in the store in hopes you can save it with some TLC? Or is it more conscientious to let it die in the store with the hopes someone else doesn't purchase it and the store doesn't order more? Should we march outside the store holding picket signs saying don't buy the Moorish Idol (lol - that's a stretch)? What about the prices some of these "rare" or "ultra" corals sell for? Would you pay $1000 for a frag of something? I doubt I would....unless there was hidden treasure inside. What about some fish species? I've paid too much (to some people) for a fish because it was "different" than the more common species of the genus. What is or is not conscientious to you?

 

[ScottT1980]

I take the term as being pretty literal, i.e. using your brain, understanding that the hobby does not occur in a vaccum, and making educated decision re: livestock, methodology, etc...

I hate to make it sound so simplistic, as it is not, but that is sort of my cliff notes version...

Take er easy
Scott T.

 

[CarlaW]

I think it's doing research before you buy. Doing research before you set something up.
That's another reason places like this are just flat invaluable- RESEARCH!!!

 

[bc_slc]

I agree. I think if you tackle reef husbandry with the natural reefs in mind, then that is being conscientious. For example purchasing aquacultured livestock and frags, as well as being educated about what will and what is unlikely to survive in captivity. I think it includes educating ourselves, but also educating all the new reefers out there as well.

 

[bradreef]

You bunch of hippies I have the ultimate acan lord collection and I only payed $10,000 for it.

 

[jesshimom]

In my simple words, it's all what I think I can be successful with and what my checkbook can afford.

 

[wrightme43]

Doing my best to do more good than harm. Not to waste fish or corals. Helping others, and letting others help me. Steve

 

[NaH2O]

You bunch of hippies I have the ultimate acan lord collection and I only payed $10,000 for it.

Awesome! What is that.....4 or 5 polyps??

Everyone has made good points - eductation and research for sure is important. I like what jesshimom said about being successful with what she can afford. Does it still make it right....being an "expert" reefkeeper, and having money to buy whatever......would you still be conscientious purchasing or ordering more delicate species, that IMO should be left out in the wild? What types of species do you feel should not be collected? Even down to the invertebrates.....like horseshoe crabs. Do "educated" hobbyists have a responsibility to livestock by mentioning something to the store owner or informing a person about to make a purchase to the difficulty level of the livestock?

 

[CarlaW]

Nikki,
I think that the store owner has a responsibility. If that store owner doesn't say something, I have pulled people aside and said something. That is one reason I can't go into the local LFS anymore. Some people will try and sell anything to anybody, regardless. I hate that!!!!!!

 

[middletonmark]

There's something to it about realizing what is your desire, and what is likely best.
And that often the two do not ride together.

IMO, it's not what you can afford. You can buy just about anything on this planet - having the money is not a justification IMO. Heck, you used to be able to buy people [still can in parts of the world ] ... `affording it' doesn't bring conscientiousness into the equation IME.

Just opinion ...

 

[jesshimom]

What I was saying is a two dollar chromis or a five hundred dollar whatever still is a live creature. It's my job to keep them alive and healthy no matter what they are or what they cost. It's the same soap box I get on about why people freak out at hunter's killing bambi for meat but dont mind eating a cow... what's the diff?

 

[Scooterman]

Nikki, making me think this early isn't good, If I was to write all of my thoughts on this, it would hurt. With over 4 Billion people on this planet, & the ability of more & more people having enough money to purchase the things they want has effects on everything, the demand is met easily because not all places around the world has the luxuries as a small group that continues to grow in size able to pay the price so the demand is met by whatever means necessary to make that buck. Pollution, there is enough plastic in the oceans now to reproduce everything we ever made (OO), not to mention all the other pollutants we've dumped, & I say we because we are all guilty because indirectly whatever is provided by our oceans (food, oil gas, everything plastic comes from by products of this stuff it is what makes life so nice and cozy). Ok I think everyone gets my point, now I can input the good sides of true reefers, dedicated & all of the people that do their best to help out and preserve our planet. The majority of reefers will contribute more than the majority of people that wont go to the extremes of what we do for a small reef, we do in general or eventually learn how to reproduce & succeed & in turn it leads to helping our precious reefs, man made, or by whatever means. Ok, I'll keep it short LOL, I could reall go on & on but without more coffee naw!

 

[NaH2O]

There's something to it about realizing what is your desire, and what is likely best.

Great point. I never thought about it like that. This would be where education is important.....if you aren't educated about the species of your desire - you likely won't know what's best.

Scooterman - get more coffee!!! I think you took on an interesting perspective about the natural reef and pollution.

Something I considered when starting this thread was not only our responsibility to livestock, but also responsibility to the natural reef. There are some fish when taken from areas of the wild have an impact. I believe Bob Fenner in his book mentions cleaner wrasses, and the effect of the reef from removal of these fish (more specific with species effects). Some species of cleaner wrasse when removed means the fish that depended on that particular wrasse for cleaning could potentially have parasitic issues (I need to drag out the book). So for whichever species of cleaner wrasse Bob was referring to.....if it was in the store.....eating prepared foods.....it still may not be a conscientious purchased because of the impact on natural reefs. Is there ever an issue with algae growth when tangs or other herbivours are removed from an area? I dont' know.

LOL - I know what's coming......why keep any livestock? Why not have plastic fish floating with rubber corals? So far, for me, being conscientious is educating and researching on livestock before purchase. That way the best environmental conditions can be met to meet the livestock's needs.....so it not only survives, but thrives. Again - education and research will let you know what species when removed from the wild have an impact there. Informing others about hard to care for livestock, or livestock that is best not kept in captivity is also important for me.

 

[Scooterman]

As I mentioned briefly, one thing I would like to see more, is these artificial reefs being made with such success and somehow, if we could give back what we took, mass breed fish that was removed and not only supply fellow reefers but ReSupply the reefs we already invaded & robbed, making new reefs works, it is responsible, just wish there was more of it now while we can & it isn't too late.

 

[Maxx]

Lofty goals there Scooterman....
Neat thread Nikki, what brought this one on?
I think getting hobbyists, (at the ground level...beginners) educated and knowledgable about what species should be left alone is the biggest step and IMO the most important. Books like the Concientious Marine Aquarist are steps in this direction, but stores need to get involved as well.

I completely understand your dilemma Charlie with speaking out at Retail stores...but I try a different approach. One of the best LFS here in St Louis has alot of young 20 somethings working there...I would cringe when I would hear some mis information coming from them them, but rather than get directly involved....I left it alone unless they were talking someone into putting a panther grouper in a 20 gallon...
What I did was to talk with them over several months and just get to know them....they got to know me....now alot of times, they ask me for advice on things when dealing with customers... This does two things IMO..educates the LFS employees who will come in contact with more people than I usually will, and I'm still allowed in the store because I havent killed any sales.
The tough part to remember is that this is how someone feeds their family...is it concientious to allow some mis information out there initally to eventually be able to correct it? I dont know...but I do know that I could have easily gotten myself banned from the store, and then I'm not able to help anyone...

I truly feel that in the next 10 years or so, the US will adopt stricter measures against importation of sea life and the hobby will then HAVE to become self sufficient to survive. RCT Hawaii and Black Pearl are the two groups that were breeding alot of the Centropyge angels,(Flames, potters, Rusty, Lemon Peel, Multicolor, etc) and even Royal Gramma's and Black Cap Basslets, but they have since either gotten out of commercial breeding (Black Pearl) or shifted their emphasis to very rare and expensive breeds, (RCT Hawaii is breeding Resplendant Angels and Interruptus angels) because they are profitable....the market just wouldnt support the cost of the captive bred flames etc...
I feel once the availability of the wid caught stock becomes much more regulated, the captive bred programs will take off again...this will also increase the programs for captive reared fish like the bigger angels etc which might not be as heavily regulated...

A good example in another completely unrelated filed is the obnoxiously high prices of gasoline and the increase in interest in hybrid vehicles...Both Toyota and Honda have released new models of hybrid vehicles in the last 6 months....coincidence or conspiracy???

Nick

 

[CarlaW]

maxx,
I understand what you are saying, but when the owner of said store threatens his employees after finding out that we had invited them to our local reefclub meetings, that is where I drew the line!!! He gets by selling his dog food, while a 5" tridacna crocea sits in his "reef tank" totally white, devoid of color, because he is keeping it underneath smart lites.
I don't consider that ethical by any means.

 

[MikeS]

Yeah, threatning employees who seek to improve their knowledge? that's no good at all, Charlie...

IMO the best way to deal with that store is to not give them your business, and to spread the word about thier parctices...as long as it's true, there is no lible issues there...give the good LFS's your business and encourage others to do so...I myself would rather pay a few more dollors at a good, honest LFS than frequent a lousy one...



MikeS

 

[Ohgee]

Well Mike you are absolutely right, Thats why most of us drive 250 miles to buy from Kevin instead of dealing with this guy. Only problem is when you don't plan right and run out of salt or something little. Hard to justify driving to Spokane in that case.

There are a couple of us who still try to encourage his employee's, but thats only becuase the owner doesn't know we are involved in the group.

Guess thats little way of "Being Conscientious ", besides spending hours and hours try to learn all I can on this site. Thanks to Charlie who recommended it to me.

Duane

 

[plack]

Conscientious (Con`sci*en"tious) (?), a.
[Cf. F. consciencieux, LL. conscientiosus.]

1. Influenced by conscience; governed by a strict regard to the dictates of conscience, or by the known or supposed rules of right and wrong; -- said of a person. "The advice of wise and conscientious men." Prescott.

This Right and wrong can be said to your values morales and ethics this is way way to heavy for reefers

 

[Maxx]

maxx,
I understand what you are saying, but when the owner of said store threatens his employees after finding out that we had invited them to our local reefclub meetings, that is where I drew the line!!! He gets by selling his dog food, while a 5" tridacna crocea sits in his "reef tank" totally white, devoid of color, because he is keeping it underneath smart lites.
I don't consider that ethical by any means.

Hell Charlie If that was going on in the store I frequent, I'd do something about it too...
I wasnt chastising you, just telling you what I did.

Nick