Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
That takes all the simplicity out and is quite risky to corals
Best way to raise PH to 8.4-8.6
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That takes all the simplicity out and is quite risky to corals
Not if done correctly. Kalk drips totally rely on amount of evaporation, which has nothing to do with coral uptake or Ca and Alk. Randy has several great threads on the use of Kalk Slurries, as does Anthony Calfo in his Coral Prop. book. If not done properly, it can be quite risky, but all the risk can be eliminated with some precautions.
Here's a copy and paste from Randy Holmes~Farley's article, found here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php#12 that specifically talks about using a Kalk Slurry and a safe way to do so.
.....As a general guideline, adding the equivalent of 1.25% of the tank's volume in saturated limewater will raise the pH by about 0.66 pH units. That increase may be more than desired all at once, but that volume, or more, spread out over the course of a day may be necessary to maintain high pH.
If you are limited by low evaporation and cannot add enough limewater, use a slurry of lime. For example, 1-2 level teaspoons of calcium hydroxide can be made into a slurry by mixing with one cup of RO/DI (reverse osmosis/deionized) water (not tank water). Stir it up and dump it into a high flow area away from delicate organisms. Adding one level teaspoon of solid lime this way into a 100-gallon aquarium will raise its pH by about 0.3 pH units. This process may need to be repeated several times a day to keep the pH high.....
.....As a general guideline, adding the equivalent of 1.25% of the tank's volume in saturated limewater will raise the pH by about 0.66 pH units. That increase may be more than desired all at once, but that volume, or more, spread out over the course of a day may be necessary to maintain high pH.
If you are limited by low evaporation and cannot add enough limewater, use a slurry of lime. For example, 1-2 level teaspoons of calcium hydroxide can be made into a slurry by mixing with one cup of RO/DI (reverse osmosis/deionized) water (not tank water). Stir it up and dump it into a high flow area away from delicate organisms. Adding one level teaspoon of solid lime this way into a 100-gallon aquarium will raise its pH by about 0.3 pH units. This process may need to be repeated several times a day to keep the pH high.....
Kalk is only a temporary boost. Dosing it in a slurry wont do you any good for keeping the ph up long term. I personally think dosing large amounts of kalk when your tank isnt using it is a HORRIBLE idea, and would not recomend it.
If you follow the link I gave you about dino's I got rid of them very quickly without doing anything to my PH. There is no scientific evidence that you need to raise your PH to get rid of them.
If you follow the link I gave you about dino's I got rid of them very quickly without doing anything to my PH. There is no scientific evidence that you need to raise your PH to get rid of them.
jezzeaepi, where's this link you mention? I'd love to read it, since I think I am starting to have a Dino problem in my frag tank as well.
Though there's no scientific evidence, there have been a lot of studies in regards to limiting factors for Dinoflagellates growth. It has been shown that most species DO have a limiting factor of growth and seem to die off with higher pH. However, there are 2 species that have shown awesome growth with higher pH. Fortunately, those 2 species aren't commonly found in our tanks, because their limiting growth factor is low pH, below 7.0, which would be death to our tanks.
The link I gave, to Randy's article, also has some footnotes which are very helpful to study. They do show that raising pH is the most effective treatment, to date, for the species of Dinos we usually come across. There are other treatments, but they are statistically less effective. Doesn't mean they won't work though.
If done properly, raising pH is the most effective treatment, AND can be done very safely.
If you google "Dinoflagellates," you'll find very little information about this. Part of the reason is because it's usually mis-identified as Cyanobacteria. Part of the reason is that there are many different species of Dinos, each with their own growth limiting factors. For some, temperature is the limiting factor, for others, it's Alk...and still for other's it's pH.
With your google results, you'll find that the most common thread with effective treatments consists of raising pH, NOT doing water changes, NOT blowing the Dinos around with a turkey baster or powerhead (manually removing seems to be more effective) and turning lights out for a few days, and then slowly reintroducing light over a period of time.
Though there's no scientific evidence, there have been a lot of studies in regards to limiting factors for Dinoflagellates growth. It has been shown that most species DO have a limiting factor of growth and seem to die off with higher pH. However, there are 2 species that have shown awesome growth with higher pH. Fortunately, those 2 species aren't commonly found in our tanks, because their limiting growth factor is low pH, below 7.0, which would be death to our tanks.
The link I gave, to Randy's article, also has some footnotes which are very helpful to study. They do show that raising pH is the most effective treatment, to date, for the species of Dinos we usually come across. There are other treatments, but they are statistically less effective. Doesn't mean they won't work though.
If done properly, raising pH is the most effective treatment, AND can be done very safely.
If you google "Dinoflagellates," you'll find very little information about this. Part of the reason is because it's usually mis-identified as Cyanobacteria. Part of the reason is that there are many different species of Dinos, each with their own growth limiting factors. For some, temperature is the limiting factor, for others, it's Alk...and still for other's it's pH.
With your google results, you'll find that the most common thread with effective treatments consists of raising pH, NOT doing water changes, NOT blowing the Dinos around with a turkey baster or powerhead (manually removing seems to be more effective) and turning lights out for a few days, and then slowly reintroducing light over a period of time.
SO I have only had the lights on for about 4 hours the last two days and I have had my ph up to about 8.3 or so. Seems to be major improvement so far! So I'll keep my fingers crossed and see what happens. As of right now no algae on the glass and seems to be a little still hanging on to the corals but a huge difference. We'll see what happens on Sunday when the lighs come back on for a longer period.
Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
Michael, yes Randy H has some amazing chemistry and techniques and I am a big fan of Anthony C. No techniques are better than others, but some require more handling and care. I personally aim for simplicity with as much foolproof as possible. I have had zero algae problems in many years yet have had Heavily stocked overfed schools of large fish, and in a sps tank. I am a firm believer in using as much the natural method whenever possible. Kalk being as close to nature as I can find, being similar to the gradual erosion of alkaline rock by rain, flowing into the ocean. A bit poetic and sarcastic, but you get the point. I have also used the high tech approach and loved it too.
To summarize, no method is superior, but some of the remedies that try to fix FAST, can be screwed up a little easier. So I lean for the ones that take longer and are permanent. Regards pal, I love all your contribution her, every bit of it! This site exists based on user content provided.
Great to hear Joe.
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35912&highlight=dinos
Dinos die off quickly without light is what I am saying. There is no need to raise the PH to kill them. Once you kill them off, you still need to get those excess nutrients out of your tank somehow, or they will just come back. Dinos are a symptom of a greater problem in the tank that needs to be addressed, usually flow, and nutrient removal. There also seems to be a correlation between dino's and not having enough live rock in the system.
So to reiterate:
1)Kill all dinos by leaving lights off for two days.
2)Use a carbon reactor to absorb the toxic die off.
3)Skim wet to pull out as much nutrients as you can.
4)Clear out any remaining detritus accumulations
5)Ease back in to lighting schedule
This is the treatment I gathered after reading many failure and success stories, and these were the common threads that seemed to run through all of the success stories. Higher PH may indeed help for some of the species, but if you havent addressed the issue that allowed them to take hold in the first place, they will most likely come back as soon as you stop elevating your PH.
The lights out method alows you to quickly kill them all, remove their decaying bio mass, and give you a clean slate when you turn your lights on. You also dont have to keep raising your alk/calc levels to levels that your corals are not used to, which can cause STN and RTN in my expereince.
Dinos die off quickly without light is what I am saying. There is no need to raise the PH to kill them. Once you kill them off, you still need to get those excess nutrients out of your tank somehow, or they will just come back. Dinos are a symptom of a greater problem in the tank that needs to be addressed, usually flow, and nutrient removal. There also seems to be a correlation between dino's and not having enough live rock in the system.
So to reiterate:
1)Kill all dinos by leaving lights off for two days.
2)Use a carbon reactor to absorb the toxic die off.
3)Skim wet to pull out as much nutrients as you can.
4)Clear out any remaining detritus accumulations
5)Ease back in to lighting schedule
This is the treatment I gathered after reading many failure and success stories, and these were the common threads that seemed to run through all of the success stories. Higher PH may indeed help for some of the species, but if you havent addressed the issue that allowed them to take hold in the first place, they will most likely come back as soon as you stop elevating your PH.
The lights out method alows you to quickly kill them all, remove their decaying bio mass, and give you a clean slate when you turn your lights on. You also dont have to keep raising your alk/calc levels to levels that your corals are not used to, which can cause STN and RTN in my expereince.
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My skimmer should more than do the job. I will do one larger water change on Saturday night and skim as wet as possible. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and I thank you guys for your help. This has been very frustrating. I have lost most of my sps, except for those that Sarang was nice enough to keep for me.
reeftank1
Do you digiscope?
Joe - I thought the Mg treatments were to kill the bryopsis. It seems that there was a thread on here a long time ago from the guy that had a nice huge cube in Tacoma.
WC but it still seems that the input is coming from somewhere else - media bags, overflow, or maybe in the rocks themselves and leaching? Who am I to know!!!!!!
WC but it still seems that the input is coming from somewhere else - media bags, overflow, or maybe in the rocks themselves and leaching? Who am I to know!!!!!!
riemannp
spike
One thought (and forgive me if you've already discussed this one): You mentioned that you recently "moved" your tank. As you know, disturbing the plennum and all the established/thriving infauna within could cause a spike in algae as the system works to replentish lost life, diversity, etc. Such a loss of biomass working so hard to keep your nutients in check could be a cause of your algae spike. I suffered such a loss of infauna when I "moved" my 100 gallon, which involved inevitable major disturbance to my sandbed. You can of course measure this generally be looking at the side of you system with a magnifying glass and counting the number of critters per inch, etc. Forgive me if I'm a step behind you all, but I just noticed this didn't come up. It's important becuase one possible solution may be to recharge your system by adding sand bed critters back, if indeed the life/diversity of the infauna was reduced significantly during your "move". To simply push the pH up may be addressing a symptom as opposed to the root issue. Then again guys, I may be off the mark.
PCFishman
Acan Addict
I think natural solutions r the best, if u have a sump I would suggest setting up a refugium. A way to ensure a good balance of ph is to make sure you dkh and calc r at the right levels alk(8-11) calc(400-420). If u set a regiment that maintains those params u will never have to check your ph.
If u can't set up a refugium run phosphate remover and shorten your photo period. U can have the light completely off in the tank for 3-4 days with no ill effect.
If u can't set up a refugium run phosphate remover and shorten your photo period. U can have the light completely off in the tank for 3-4 days with no ill effect.
Boomer
Well-known member
There is no scientific evidence that you need to raise your PH to get rid of them.
There is no scientific evidence that turning out the light kills them either
So, that is a poor comment.
Ok, not really, as there is one
Mortality in cultures of the dinoflagellate
Amphidinium carterae during culture senescence and
darkness
http://www.uwm.edu/~berges/Publications/Franklin_Berges_2004.pdf
Other research on dino's
http://translate.google.es/translat...thread.php?t=13241&sl=es&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8
and
Research to eliminate bloom of dinoflagellates
http://translate.google.es/translat...thread.php?t=13820&sl=es&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8
and
Growth of dinoflagellates, Ceratium furca and Ceratium fusus in Sagami Bay, Japan: The role of nutrients
Seung Ho Baeka, 1, , , Shinji Shimodea, 2, Myung-Soo Hanb and Tomohiko Kikuchia
aGraduate School of Environmental and Information Sciences, Yokohama National University, 79-2 Tokiwadai, Hodo***a, Yokohama 240-8501, Japan
bDepartment of Life Science, Hanyang University, 17 Haengdang, Seongdong, Seoul 133-791, Republic of Korea
Received 23 October 2007; revised 16 February 2008; accepted 19 February 2008. Available online 29 February 2008.
Abstract
In order to study the influence of nutrients on the growth characteristics of the dominant dinoflagellates, Ceratium furca and Ceratium fusus, in the temperate coastal area of Sagami Bay, Japan, we conducted field monitoring from January 2000 to December 2005 and performed laboratory culture experiments. In the field study, population densities of C. furca and C. fusus were high, even in low nutrient concentrations (N: 1.58 ìM, P: 0.17 ìM). Both species were more abundant in the surface and sub-surface layers than in the bottom layers during the stratification periods. In the laboratory study, the specific growth rates of C. furca and C. fusus increased gradually along with increasing nutrients up to the T5 (N: 5 ìM, P: 0.5 ìM) and T10 (N: 10 ìM, P: 1 ìM) concentration levels, after which the growth rate plateaued at the T50 (N: 50 ìM, P: 5 ìM) concentration level. In contrast, the nutrient uptake rates of both species continuously increased, indicating “luxury consumption�, i.e., excessive cellular storage not related to growth rate. The half-saturation constants (Ks) of C. furca for nitrate (0.49 ìM) and phosphate (0.05 ìM) were slightly higher than C. fusus (0.32 and 0.03 ìM, respectively). We offer two reasons why the two Ceratium population densities were maintained at high levels in low nutrient conditions. First, these two species have a competitive advantage over other algal species because of low Ks values and specific characteristics for nutrient uptake such as luxury consumption. Their ability to obtain nutrients through alternative methods, such as phagotrophy, might contribute to bloom formation and population persistence. Second, the cell densities of both Ceratium species increased along with nitrate concentrations in the media even when phosphorus was held constant. In particular, the growth of C. furca was directly supported by various nitrogen sources such as nitrate, ammonium, and urea, although the highest growth rates were observed only in the nitrate-enriched cultures. Our field and laboratory results revealed that the growth rates of the two Ceratium species increased readily in high N/P nutrient conditions (i.e., conditions of P limitation) indicating an advantage over other algal species in phosphorus-limited environments such as Sagami Bay.
and
Macronutrients requirements of the dinoflagellate Protoceratium reticulatum
Juan Jos¨¦ Gallardo Rodr¨ªgueza, Asterio S¨¢nchez Mir¨®na, , , Mar¨ªa del Carmen Cer¨®n Garc¨ªaa, El Hassan Belarbia, Francisco Garc¨ªa Camachoa, Yusuf Chistib and Emilio Molina Grimaa
aDepartment of Chemical Engineering, University of Almer¨ªa, Ctra. Sacramento, S/N, 04120 Almer¨ªa, Spain
bSchool of Engineering, Massey University, Private Bag 11 222, Palmerston North, New Zealand
Received 24 January 2008; revised 4 June 2008; accepted 4 June 2008. Available online 11 June 2008.
Abstract
The basal L1 medium was found to be unsatisfactory for culturing the red tide dinoflagellate Protoceratium reticulatum at a high growth rate and biomass yield. The L1 medium enhanced with phosphate to a total concentration of 217 ¦ÌM supported the highest attainable growth rate and biomass yield. Once the phosphate concentration exceeded 6¡� L1, phosphate inhibited the dinoflagellate growth and negatively affected cell viability.
At the optimal phosphate concentration of 217 ¦ÌM, an increase in nitrate concentration over the range of 882¨C8824 ¦ÌM, did not affect cell growth and yield. Nitrate did not inhibit growth at any of the concentrations used. Clearly, the basal nitrate level in L1 is sufficient for effectively culturing P. reticulatum. At the ranges of phosphate and nitrate concentrations tested, cell volume was not sensitive to the concentration of nutrients but the concentration of phosphate affected both the specific cell number and cell volume growth rates. Elevated levels of nutrients supported their intracellular accumulation. Cell-specific production of yessotoxin was not influenced by concentration of phosphate in the culture medium, but elevated (>1764 ¦ÌM) nitrate concentration did enhance the yessotoxin level. Phosphate concentration that maximized biomass yield also maximized volumetric production of yessotoxin in the culture broth.
Problem Dinoflagellates and pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php
Many have been successful killing Dinos' with higher pH, via Kalk or turning out the lights and turing out the lights includes cyano and diatoms also. It is basically different stokes for differnt folks. And some have not had very good success turing out the lights for 2 days, at times it is more than 2 days or 2 days off 1 day on 2 days off etc. for some. All meaning your exact scehme is not a 100 % guarantee for everybody and neither is Kalk. However, lights is a better method IMHO also.
There is no scientific evidence that turning out the light kills them either
So, that is a poor comment. Ok, not really, as there is one
Mortality in cultures of the dinoflagellate
Amphidinium carterae during culture senescence and
darkness
http://www.uwm.edu/~berges/Publications/Franklin_Berges_2004.pdf
Other research on dino's
http://translate.google.es/translat...thread.php?t=13241&sl=es&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8
and
Research to eliminate bloom of dinoflagellates
http://translate.google.es/translat...thread.php?t=13820&sl=es&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8
and
Growth of dinoflagellates, Ceratium furca and Ceratium fusus in Sagami Bay, Japan: The role of nutrients
Seung Ho Baeka, 1, , , Shinji Shimodea, 2, Myung-Soo Hanb and Tomohiko Kikuchia
aGraduate School of Environmental and Information Sciences, Yokohama National University, 79-2 Tokiwadai, Hodo***a, Yokohama 240-8501, Japan
bDepartment of Life Science, Hanyang University, 17 Haengdang, Seongdong, Seoul 133-791, Republic of Korea
Received 23 October 2007; revised 16 February 2008; accepted 19 February 2008. Available online 29 February 2008.
Abstract
In order to study the influence of nutrients on the growth characteristics of the dominant dinoflagellates, Ceratium furca and Ceratium fusus, in the temperate coastal area of Sagami Bay, Japan, we conducted field monitoring from January 2000 to December 2005 and performed laboratory culture experiments. In the field study, population densities of C. furca and C. fusus were high, even in low nutrient concentrations (N: 1.58 ìM, P: 0.17 ìM). Both species were more abundant in the surface and sub-surface layers than in the bottom layers during the stratification periods. In the laboratory study, the specific growth rates of C. furca and C. fusus increased gradually along with increasing nutrients up to the T5 (N: 5 ìM, P: 0.5 ìM) and T10 (N: 10 ìM, P: 1 ìM) concentration levels, after which the growth rate plateaued at the T50 (N: 50 ìM, P: 5 ìM) concentration level. In contrast, the nutrient uptake rates of both species continuously increased, indicating “luxury consumption�, i.e., excessive cellular storage not related to growth rate. The half-saturation constants (Ks) of C. furca for nitrate (0.49 ìM) and phosphate (0.05 ìM) were slightly higher than C. fusus (0.32 and 0.03 ìM, respectively). We offer two reasons why the two Ceratium population densities were maintained at high levels in low nutrient conditions. First, these two species have a competitive advantage over other algal species because of low Ks values and specific characteristics for nutrient uptake such as luxury consumption. Their ability to obtain nutrients through alternative methods, such as phagotrophy, might contribute to bloom formation and population persistence. Second, the cell densities of both Ceratium species increased along with nitrate concentrations in the media even when phosphorus was held constant. In particular, the growth of C. furca was directly supported by various nitrogen sources such as nitrate, ammonium, and urea, although the highest growth rates were observed only in the nitrate-enriched cultures. Our field and laboratory results revealed that the growth rates of the two Ceratium species increased readily in high N/P nutrient conditions (i.e., conditions of P limitation) indicating an advantage over other algal species in phosphorus-limited environments such as Sagami Bay.
and
Macronutrients requirements of the dinoflagellate Protoceratium reticulatum
Juan Jos¨¦ Gallardo Rodr¨ªgueza, Asterio S¨¢nchez Mir¨®na, , , Mar¨ªa del Carmen Cer¨®n Garc¨ªaa, El Hassan Belarbia, Francisco Garc¨ªa Camachoa, Yusuf Chistib and Emilio Molina Grimaa
aDepartment of Chemical Engineering, University of Almer¨ªa, Ctra. Sacramento, S/N, 04120 Almer¨ªa, Spain
bSchool of Engineering, Massey University, Private Bag 11 222, Palmerston North, New Zealand
Received 24 January 2008; revised 4 June 2008; accepted 4 June 2008. Available online 11 June 2008.
Abstract
The basal L1 medium was found to be unsatisfactory for culturing the red tide dinoflagellate Protoceratium reticulatum at a high growth rate and biomass yield. The L1 medium enhanced with phosphate to a total concentration of 217 ¦ÌM supported the highest attainable growth rate and biomass yield. Once the phosphate concentration exceeded 6¡� L1, phosphate inhibited the dinoflagellate growth and negatively affected cell viability.
At the optimal phosphate concentration of 217 ¦ÌM, an increase in nitrate concentration over the range of 882¨C8824 ¦ÌM, did not affect cell growth and yield. Nitrate did not inhibit growth at any of the concentrations used. Clearly, the basal nitrate level in L1 is sufficient for effectively culturing P. reticulatum. At the ranges of phosphate and nitrate concentrations tested, cell volume was not sensitive to the concentration of nutrients but the concentration of phosphate affected both the specific cell number and cell volume growth rates. Elevated levels of nutrients supported their intracellular accumulation. Cell-specific production of yessotoxin was not influenced by concentration of phosphate in the culture medium, but elevated (>1764 ¦ÌM) nitrate concentration did enhance the yessotoxin level. Phosphate concentration that maximized biomass yield also maximized volumetric production of yessotoxin in the culture broth.
Problem Dinoflagellates and pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php
Many have been successful killing Dinos' with higher pH, via Kalk or turning out the lights and turing out the lights includes cyano and diatoms also. It is basically different stokes for differnt folks. And some have not had very good success turing out the lights for 2 days, at times it is more than 2 days or 2 days off 1 day on 2 days off etc. for some. All meaning your exact scehme is not a 100 % guarantee for everybody and neither is Kalk. However, lights is a better method IMHO also.
