Bored! So lets design a Skimmer!

[mojoreef]

I'm trying to get a full under standing of cause and effect so that I maybe able to to give better input for a improved design and contibute more to what this thread is really about

Thats the concept my friend. On the potassium that could be a number of things probibly, to do with iodide in the form of potassium iodide. I guess one would have to look at the differences between your needlewheel and your beckett?? What were the numbers their? also thier is evidence of electrical static charge comeing from the needle wheel. But not sure.

On a whole many elements are going to be removed from skimming, you can measure that by doing a salinity test on your skimmate. I beleive that has alot to do with the type of skimmate you do, as in wet or dry or something inbetween? Then you have to add the chemistry, which is biologically available, which are tied up in protien strains and so on and so on. I think if we dig that deep we will make this one a bit to long, but it something we can test against with whatever we come up with.

Mojo

 

[mojoreef]

Ok so lets review a little bit. So things we know:

> we know that we need ammount of time where the air and the water are mixing, this will allow protiens/nutrients and similar to both be stripped and then mechanically attach to the air/water interface. This should be happening in the lower section of the skimmer. I think a skimmer holding 2 to 3 gallons of water should be the target, that way folks can scale up or down (depending on their tanks) as long as the math works. One thing to remember is that the water volume should be just water with no air in it. I would say a 1 minute time frame should be the minimium. So we need to find a way to accomplish this with the equipment available.

> We want the mixing chamber to move in a manner that exposes air bubbles to as much water moles as we can get, but not violent enough to distroy the bubbles. Ultimately it would be nice to have the air and water come in from directions opposite to each other but I think thats going to be a tough call with venturi style pumps, but I thinkwe can live without that.

> From this mixing chamber we are going to get protien and similar laidened air bubbles so we need to get these moving onward and upwards with an amount of pace so the stuff we want out doesnt drain back. Also we dont want any air bubbles bursting so we have to maintain the small bubble size through out this section. I think we also need to think about some new techniques such as bacteria loading through the use of bio pellets and similar. So I think the pace of the foam column in this chamber will dictate how much inorganic material we can send up and out. So do we do this increase in speed of foam via cone?, reduced cylinder?

> So other things we can take a look at if were feeling fancy?? lol Do we design a wetneck?? a concept where water is allowed to flow down the neck of the skimmer. With this water flow down the walls of the neck it makes for a much reduced amount of resistance on te foam, it also keeps scum from building up on the neck which is nice for those that dont like cleaning skimmers like me.

> How about a flush down system?? So some kind of spray nozzle that you can turn on that then flushes down the neck and skimmer cup?? this way you dont have to clean it? just drain it??


Anyway some thoughts


Mojo

 

[akunochi]

I see lots of ideas and concepts....but not a design to implement them that I can steal yet....LOL

 

[Guerry]

sounds like we are designing a Sea Skim 1800 LOL

 

[Sasquatch]

Mojo? how about something new, why not address the foam head in a different manner? the traditional over the neck into the cup is a standard on just about all skimmers. If you lowered the level of water in the skimmer so the foam head was below the neck area how would you describe the foam head? at some point it is multi layered ... water with bubbles, bubbles on bubbles, dirty bubbles and froth, what part of the head would be best to harvest?

 

[TheKraken]

I Do not have enough experience diving to determine if the tropical ocean is run off a big Ehiem or a large number of ampmasters.

In California it appeared that sea foam was more a function of water mixing with air and being caries to the shore. I think the water returns under the sand so that the foam is consumed by sand critters or turned to dust to blow inland.

In my tank I am trying to mix a small volume of air into water and then remove the filth from the system. A system to mix water with air might look more like a beckett with water sprayed through a colum of air. I am not sure how the sea foam is removed. Sand seems like a nitrate factory. Bulk removal is about the same as conventional. Running the skimmate into macoalgae or mangrove might remediate enough.

 

[Sasquatch]

A system to mix water with air might look more like a beckett with water sprayed through a colum of air.

[h=2]Air Stripping[/h] Removal of dissolved volatile organic compounds (VOC) from groundwater, by sheering the liquid across a predetermined counter current air flow with a precise flow rate. Air stripping can utilize packed tower strippers or a simpler system of a tower filled with high surface area packing.

 

[mojoreef]

sounds like we are designing a Sea Skim 1800 LOL

LOL I am not saying we need all these features but once we get past the basics....well skys the limit! Just slap me if I wonder to much, lol

Mojo? how about something new, why not address the foam head in a different manner? the traditional over the neck into the cup is a standard on just about all skimmers. If you lowered the level of water in the skimmer so the foam head was below the neck area how would you describe the foam head?

Thats part 2, we got to get past part 1 first.

In California it appeared that sea foam was more a function of water mixing with air and being caries to the shore

Ok so here is where we start. If your are standing on shore looking at the waves you will see the foam, but if your underwater you will see billions of air bubbles and their lies the key. The mechanical stripping of protien from water molecules, the seperation of priotien strains, and so on happen their, where the air bubbles and the water mix together. Thats where we need a bit more contact time, a good rate of bombardment and a decent ratio of air to water. Forget the foam column for now, we can get to that one once we get past the mixing chamber. So lets get this puppy going.


What we need to decide is how to get air and water into our skimmers mixing chamber. So since most folks now days have either a needle wheel, beckett or a venturi lets make a call on which one to go with. In testing a number of skimmers out their it seems that all three of the ones above have issues with to much flow through and not enough time in the chamber, so we can get passed this problem by recirculating the pumps, this will allow for the person to keep what they paid a small fortune for and it will take the flow through rate out of the equation as we can control water in and out a different way.

So the question becomes which system is going to best to use as a recirc?? Doe the beckett need to much pump to venturi air? does the needle wheel distroy to many air bubbles when the water goes through again?? For this I am going to need folks that have these types of skimmers to tell me what they see. How small a pump on a beckett can we have and get air?? same on the needle wheel??


remember making foam is easy, its doing the others that is a little harder


A little skimmer candy for ya

 

[TheKraken]

Dear Mike,

I have a DelTEC 1250 Turbo on my tank and have come to the realization that I know absolutely nothing about skimmer performance. For the last year+ it was tucked away in the stand so I ran the water level high and the air control full open (more air is better right?). I get olive/brown crud in the collection chamber.

I am now running a sump where I can see the internal water level and foam better and make tweaks. With the air full open I get lots of action in the neck but most of the bubbles are big and the foam head bumps as collapsed bubbles push past the actual foam on top. If I close down the air the bubbles are much smaller and batter behaved. The flow increases dramatically so I end up shooting micro bubbles into the next section. I pulled the "turbo" elbow on the pump last night to change the flow dynamics and so far the adjustment of air/waterlevel/skimmate appears to be an improvement.

With more air I get lots of bubbles like your picture above (I don't see much liquid in the cup...). I figured that turbulence was important to make bubbles but it looks like it actually is to be avoided as it leads to burping.

So I ask you, What should the skim mate look like as it travels up the collection neck?

 

[TheKraken]

So the question becomes which system is going to best to use as a recirc?? Doe the beckett need to much pump to venturi air? does the needle wheel distroy to many air bubbles when the water goes through again?? For this I am going to need folks that have these types of skimmers to tell me what they see. How small a pump on a beckett can we have and get air?? same on the needle wheel??

If I can summarize my research to date, Skimmers look like a minefield for patent issues. Needlewheel? Patented! (so say "pinwheel") Spray injection? Patented! (and defended to the point that the diagrams from RC were removed).

I really want to recirculating on my next skimmer. Right now I have one tank with a coast to coast overflow that would likely be run at ~ 1000GPH with a pair of dursos. The other tank is a Megaflow with a Herby type drain. I am not sure if a Herby can be balanced on a recirculating skimmer or if the action of a durso and incorporated air would be beneficial. Opinions?

To go down your list, the Becket seems to be sensitive to back pressure on the venturi as it is ideally located at our neck the level of the collection cup. I am not sure if the additional length of pipe causes a problem.

I am not sure exactly how much pressure/flow a venturi requires but I think this can be considered. If you are speck'n ozone this would be a natural choice.

I would like to know more about spray injection before I rule it out.

For cost and power consumption the pinwheel has potential. The C-Skim has already been mentioned in this tread and looks compelling.

I have the "becket" style DIY "tube on a box" design and would like to start making holes!

 

[mojoreef]

With more air I get lots of bubbles like your picture above (I don't see much liquid in the cup...). I figured that turbulence was important to make bubbles but it looks like it actually is to be avoided as it leads to burping.

So I ask you, What should the skim mate look like as it travels up the collection neck?

Trust me that cup fills constantly, the skimmate is almost black with kind of an oil consistancy. Also the skimmer cup is an 18 inch tube. Anyway to try an answer that question. Its more of a series of stages when it comes to the whole picture. So in the mixing chamber you will see turbulance with air and water mixing, as it rises the equation of air to water mix begins to swing towards the air volume, this keeps increasing until it gets to the neck to where it is solid air bubbles with the liquid being just inbetween them and then out. The idea that you dont see any change in the bubbles size until just prior to the top of the neck where they tend to join as they go over the top. Or at least that is what happens to mine, and in saying that I think that could be improved by modifing the top of the neck (perhaps a cone shape their).

The color of skimmate wil be a combination of a number of different materials and thus will have differing colors and consistancy depending on what kind of skimmers folks are using and also tank conditions. Mine is always virtually black when it arrives in the cup but on the way up the neck I can see no color. So I would assume that this is due to the particles being microscopic until they gather together where they can be seen in a larger conglomeration.

So yea I would agree the recirc is the best option when dealing with these type of pumps, also we are going to have to have some form of seperation from the mixing chamber to the next chamber so we dont end up creating to much violence it what should be our slow progression from mixing, to forming to neck collection to cup. If we allow all those areas to be in an all in one we are going to be loosing effect.


Mojo

 

[ksed]

Mojo

Nice foam head in that collection cup.
I have a sweet tooth, lets see more skimmer candy


Kevin

 

[mojoreef]

Hiya Kevin good to see you jump in. I sent ya some pictures


Mojo

 

[ksed]

Thanks
This is the way all skimmers should be built.To bad many skimmers are sold based on gimmicks and fads. The unfortunate part is that consumers look for changes even though it may not benefit functionality.

 

[Sasquatch]

recirc a beckett, tried it 3 times just does not work, the air being drawn in on a standard setup is hit by solid water only, on recirc applications the mix of air and water drastically drops the force applied on "drawing" more air into the beckett

 

[Guerry]

so whats everyones thoughts on using a recirc pump to create a swirl affect within main bubble chamber

 

[Guerry]

when you tried the recir pump on your becket was this with open box design much like the design used by MRC

 

[Sasquatch]

when you tried the recir pump on your becket was this with open box design much like the design used by MRC

one was like that, another an 8'' tube with bubble plate, just didn't have the same shearing force across the air intake holes for some reason

 

[mojoreef]

So a kind of cavatation? Can you reduce the air a bit? Remember we are only looking for around 20% air.

Dose anyone have a needle wheel type pump they can try? Just running it in a buckett should give you an idea.

Mojo

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

[Sasquatch]

So a kind of cavatation? Can you reduce the air a bit? Remember we are only looking for around 20% air.

Dose anyone have a needle wheel type pump they can try? Just running it in a buckett should give you an idea.

Mojo


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

you would certainly get enough from recircing a beckett but the electrical cost and pump cost just isn't justified, I just changed my needle wheel from recirc to just a one pump skimmer, way more bubbles and head height so recirc is lowered air volume I can only assume the turbulence on a recirc is more as the volute just isn't getting the same air/water ratio so more flow less bubbles.
My dream toy would be to miniaturize a beckett in all dimensions but can't figure out if you still need the pressure required of a full size one