Bored! So lets design a Skimmer!

[Guerry]

it must have changed the neg. preasure below the becket, so to know this for fact sounds like we need to install pressure gages to both sides of becket injector tube to measure DP across the becket. This way we can test with and with recirc. and maybe find out how to fix this issuse

 

[ksed]

Typically recirc needle wheels generate more air, primarily because the recirc. model is less dependent on head pressure.

you would certainly get enough from recircing a beckett but the electrical cost and pump cost just isn't justified, I just changed my needle wheel from recirc to just a one pump skimmer, way more bubbles and head height so recirc is lowered air volume I can only assume the turbulence on a recirc is more as the volute just isn't getting the same air/water ratio so more flow less bubbles.
My dream toy would be to miniaturize a beckett in all dimensions but can't figure out if you still need the pressure required of a full size one

 

[Frankie]

5 pages already!? You people are internet junkies!

I'll do some back reading and pipe in some. Sorry to be out for so long, work is very busy right now. Why can't we do these things in the winter?

Guerry, relax brother, your skimmer works great. Don't listen to Mojo, if you read his words, his skimmer cup is 18" in diameter. (he's a lot sicker then we are )

I think Beckett's are great. They produce a good air/water mixture without much friction. The problem we have is the size pump needed to operate them properly. There are a few good mods out there that have been done that fix this problem and KZ actually made a smaller one. Korallenzucht KZ Nozzle White Line for Revolution S and M, Sewatec.de,Protein Skimmer, Korallenzucht KZ Skimmer, Korallenzucht KZ Nozzle White Line for Revolution S and M,

The one I built is similar to the KZ and it can run on a pump rated half the water volume a standard beckett runs on. But this is still too fast for What Mike is trying to do here. (even though I thought this was build a skimmer thread and not get to complicated but now that were on our way~)

I think I can make my own Beckett. Get past the mod issue and just start from scratch.

The key is hole size for air AND water. The smaller the hole, the faster things go. For a beckett to run properly the speed in water is the key. The faster the water, the better the air being drawn in.

So if I take a pump that pushes say, 300 GPH then I need to adjust the chamber size and air holes to accommodate the draw for the proper amount of air. It's pretty simple really. I just need some time to get some acrylic chunks orders and start drilling and carving (winter time!)

Joe Weatherson did a pretty cool beckett skimmer but did not mod the becketts or build one. I was hoping he would build his own beckett and save me a ton of money on experimenting but he has not. The Great 240-Gallon In-Wall Reef Project - Equipment

I never did like the idea of needle wheels or mesh. something about them that bothers me. I don't even like the impellers on regular pumps and prefer the types like reefflo make or the smaller versions by Lifegard like I use.

The best method now that I understand contact time would be going back to the drawing board and doing air pumps and ceramic diffusers.

So if we build this skimmer with a beckett then the key would be to either modify the current beckett, mod the KZ one (not a bad idea) or build a new type of one.

That's all I have to say for now. I'll go read the thread and come back tomorrow night after I get home from work.

Sure wish I had the time for this thread! there area some killer minds working here.

Frank

 

[Sasquatch]

5 pages already!? You people are internet junkies!

I'll do some back reading and pipe in some. Sorry to be out for so long, work is very busy right now. Why can't we do these things in the winter?

Guerry, relax brother, your skimmer works great. Don't listen to Mojo, if you read his words, his skimmer cup is 18" in diameter. (he's a lot sicker then we are )

I think Beckett's are great. They produce a good air/water mixture without much friction. The problem we have is the size pump needed to operate them properly. There are a few good mods out there that have been done that fix this problem and KZ actually made a smaller one. Korallenzucht KZ Nozzle White Line for Revolution S and M, Sewatec.de,Protein Skimmer, Korallenzucht KZ Skimmer, Korallenzucht KZ Nozzle White Line for Revolution S and M,

The one I built is similar to the KZ and it can run on a pump rated half the water volume a standard beckett runs on. But this is still too fast for What Mike is trying to do here. (even though I thought this was build a skimmer thread and not get to complicated but now that were on our way~)

I think I can make my own Beckett. Get past the mod issue and just start from scratch.

The key is hole size for air AND water. The smaller the hole, the faster things go. For a beckett to run properly the speed in water is the key. The faster the water, the better the air being drawn in.

So if I take a pump that pushes say, 300 GPH then I need to adjust the chamber size and air holes to accommodate the draw for the proper amount of air. It's pretty simple really. I just need some time to get some acrylic chunks orders and start drilling and carving (winter time!)

Joe Weatherson did a pretty cool beckett skimmer but did not mod the becketts or build one. I was hoping he would build his own beckett and save me a ton of money on experimenting but he has not. The Great 240-Gallon In-Wall Reef Project - Equipment

I never did like the idea of needle wheels or mesh. something about them that bothers me. I don't even like the impellers on regular pumps and prefer the types like reefflo make or the smaller versions by Lifegard like I use.

The best method now that I understand contact time would be going back to the drawing board and doing air pumps and ceramic diffusers.

So if we build this skimmer with a beckett then the key would be to either modify the current beckett, mod the KZ one (not a bad idea) or build a new type of one.

That's all I have to say for now. I'll go read the thread and come back tomorrow night after I get home from work.

Sure wish I had the time for this thread! there area some killer minds working here.

Frank

can a perfectionist build a one off experimental skimmer? I will supply the Advil lol

 

[Guerry]

Frankie whats up my friend, knew you'd be here sooner or later and glad you could finnaly join in. The problem with guys like us is once we build the best we figure out how to make it better and here we go again LOL

 

[mojoreef]

Guerry, relax brother, your skimmer works great. Don't listen to Mojo, if you read his words, his skimmer cup is 18" in diameter. (he's a lot sicker then we are )

Yea I have never been a fan of cleaning my skimmer cup, so the bigger the longer it is till I have to. Problem was I made my skimmer to big so it produces to much skimmate and I am back to square one on that front.:frown: I think Guerry's skimmer is a great foam producer, alonf with many other skimmers, but just because something produces foam des not mean it is PROTIEN skimming.

o if I take a pump that pushes say, 300 GPH then I need to adjust the chamber size and air holes to accommodate the draw for the proper amount of air. It's pretty simple really. I just need some time to get some acrylic chunks orders and start drilling and carving

I dont think we need to get the flow down that low?? remember we are recirculating so the flow of the pump does not pertain anymore to the overall Dwelltime.

Ok so lets take a quick step back. On the sir we pit into the skimmer, we want the ration of air to water (in the MIXING chamber) to be about 20% only. Making it more then that is going to create a saturation point which will lead to the bubbles joining together and getting larger and the larger they get the less protiens they will hold and the greater the chance of them breaking is. Excessive violence will also lead to the distruction of foam, but that is more important where the bubbles begin to form a foam column, not so much in the mixing chamber.

I am sorry it is hard to not be able to show everyone what I am getting at by typing. If you could be sitting next to me you could see my hand signal, lol Try to visualize this as it is important to the overall concept.

We are trying to create a chamber where air and water are mixing in at a ratio of about 20%. This area should be somewhat violent so that we can achieve the bombardment rate we need to break the bonds between raw water containing protiens and similar. A natural effect of this will be the acculation of bubbles, which will naturally begin to form a column and then be driven out via the neck and then into the cup. What most of the skimmers folks employ have all of this happening together and thus loose the numbers they need to achieve. So lets not try to make foam, but instead make a proper mixing chamber and let the foam be the biproduct.

So looking at the issues at hand it seems that both the venturi style (becketts) and the needle style pumps have issues with cavatation or with reducing water flow enough to work properly. So lets try to fix this a different way. We dont need to take all of it out of the pump, lets take a little out by doing some work in the mixing chamber. I will do up a quick drawing and see if I can translate that idea to something we can look at.


Mojo

 

[mojoreef]

Ok so here may be an idea to deal with some of our issues. I am going to assume were making the base a square for easy to make and for Kraken on his remodel lol

Ok so the concept is to create a top to bottom swirl for mixing/recircing purposes. We might be able to put somekind of a bubble plate on the top section to begin the accumulation of bubbles. On the bottom I figure we could add another bubble plate but make the holes more and smaller, this should restrict most air bubbles from entering that small lower section. So if it works then the water would suck into the pump from below and be mostly straight water, then enter the skimmer in the mixing chamber and circulate?? Anyway just kind of trying to show we can play on the design to help with some of the pump short comings??

Mojo

 

[Sasquatch]

So looking at the issues at hand it seems that both the venturi style (becketts) and the needle style pumps have issues with cavatation or with reducing water flow enough to work properly. So lets try to fix this a different way. We dont need to take all of it out of the pump, lets take a little out by doing some work in the mixing chamber. I will do up a quick drawing and see if I can translate that idea to something we can look at.

umm? maybe a correct sizing of pump would solve the issue, you decided on a "set" gallonage of water for the chamber and if its just a % of air and flow a n/w would be the answer as it can be achieved from almost any pump

 

[mojoreef]

Yes Sas that is true but both pump types are going to run into a limiting factor right? At some point you can only reduce the pump and or the venturi so much before your not getting the air intake? also you have to worry about the pump sucking in to much air on intake and then cavating the pump? So what I am say is that we can play on the other end also and make some mods to the mixing chamber to help with that.


On gallonage I dont think that can be carved in stone as some folks will be able to have a larger skimmer and some not, so the concept would be to make it scaleable


Mojo

 

[TJL]

You guys ROCK! This is one area/aspect of the hobby that I have yet to delve into and is absolutely fascinating and educating. To finally get an in depth understanding of how each Skimmer types actually work and to what limitations they have also. I would feel comfortable/quallified to build one but, not design one or fab my own Becket nor to the perfection of Frank's builds lol... I'll follow along, as will many and continue to learn from those willing to teach... Thank You

Cheers, Todd

 

[ksed]

Mojo

Do you mean the mixing chamber should be 20%of the skimmer, or the ratio of air should be 20% of the water volume?


Thanks

Kevin

Yea I have never been a fan of cleaning my skimmer cup, so the bigger the longer it is till I have to. Problem was I made my skimmer to big so it produces to much skimmate and I am back to square one on that front.:frown: I think Guerry's skimmer is a great foam producer, alonf with many other skimmers, but just because something produces foam des not mean it is PROTIEN skimming.



I dont think we need to get the flow down that low?? remember we are recirculating so the flow of the pump does not pertain anymore to the overall Dwelltime.

Ok so lets take a quick step back. On the sir we pit into the skimmer, we want the ration of air to water (in the MIXING chamber) to be about 20% only. Making it more then that is going to create a saturation point which will lead to the bubbles joining together and getting larger and the larger they get the less protiens they will hold and the greater the chance of them breaking is. Excessive violence will also lead to the distruction of foam, but that is more important where the bubbles begin to form a foam column, not so much in the mixing chamber.

I am sorry it is hard to not be able to show everyone what I am getting at by typing. If you could be sitting next to me you could see my hand signal, lol Try to visualize this as it is important to the overall concept.

We are trying to create a chamber where air and water are mixing in at a ratio of about 20%. This area should be somewhat violent so that we can achieve the bombardment rate we need to break the bonds between raw water containing protiens and similar. A natural effect of this will be the acculation of bubbles, which will naturally begin to form a column and then be driven out via the neck and then into the cup. What most of the skimmers folks employ have all of this happening together and thus loose the numbers they need to achieve. So lets not try to make foam, but instead make a proper mixing chamber and let the foam be the biproduct.

So looking at the issues at hand it seems that both the venturi style (becketts) and the needle style pumps have issues with cavatation or with reducing water flow enough to work properly. So lets try to fix this a different way. We dont need to take all of it out of the pump, lets take a little out by doing some work in the mixing chamber. I will do up a quick drawing and see if I can translate that idea to something we can look at.


Mojo

 

[Sasquatch]

Mojo

Do you mean the mixing chamber should be 20%of the skimmer, or the ratio of air should be 20% of the water volume?

Thanks

I thought volume so suggested pump sizing

Kevin

Thanks Kevin lol, thats why I thought pump size would handle the scale/gallonage

""Yes Sas that is true but both pump types are going to run into a limiting factor right? At some point you can only reduce the pump and or the venturi so much before your not getting the air intake? also you have to worry about the pump sucking in to much air on intake and then cavating the pump? So what I am say is that we can play on the other end also and make some mods to the mixing chamber to help with that.

Variable speed dc motors? and two air intakes... if pump is too slow to draw from large intake it would just select the smaller one as suction dictates.
Thought about the drawing at work, its almost a gyre style? in order for the bubbles to rise out of the container at their own rate of ascension (for dwell) I can't quite figure how to manage the out flow, almost like the bubble chamber is an almost separate dead zone, I see two towers somehow, one for rise and one for level management

 

[Sasquatch]

played a bit with an idea, water feed and recirc intake in shared area, Mojo's mix chamber receives bubbles, bubbles exit upward into turbulence free area and out of neck ( to be figured out.)
Left side has one connection to mixing side, feed water must find exit at gate valve and the baffle is for stray bubbles, this should create a negative draw on the mixing/riser area allowing an even slower assent for the bubbles?

 

[mojoreef]

Do you mean the mixing chamber should be 20%of the skimmer, or the ratio of air should be 20% of the water volume?

Keven in the mixing chamber your looking for a rough percentage of about 20% air 80% water, Its not a carved in stone number but above 20 -25% you reach a point of air saturation and their is a greater chance that the bubbles merge and then break.

Sas great to see the mind working! On the side by side chamber the thing that would be a draw back would be the loss of mixing chamber by having to share the over all space, and the mixing chamber is the most important part of the over all unit. I would say that water input should be just above the mixing chamber or in the top of it, that way the raw water has to navigate through our air/water mixing area and then we will get the bombardment rate we need. So Look at it this way, we have a mixing chamber where we are having the raw water molecules being bombarded by air bubbles, then in a section above that (and it doesnt have to be an added on section, just say the area above) we have the air bubbles being to accumulate for eventual ejection. So if we added raw water in this area, it would have to pass all these air buubles and then go through the mixing chamber in order to get out of the skimmer, that would give us full exposure. For the out put of water in I think a simple bulkhead in and around the area on the bottom and then just use plumbing to create the right height for over all water level in the skimmer.


Guerry where are you buddy? did we loose you?


Mojo

 

[Sasquatch]

like this?

 

[Guerry]

I'm still here, just quite when thinking and taking in all the diffent ideas

 

[Guerry]

I'm sitting wonderring how needle point plastic mesh would work instead of baffel plates, they would have to be removeable for cleaning

 

[Sasquatch]

I'm sitting wonderring how needle point plastic mesh would work instead of baffel plates, they would have to be removeable for cleaning

great idea! they come in circles too, attachment could be interesting as not much sticks to it

 

[Guerry]

well you could sandwhich then between arcylic rings then use nylon screws to hold them in place by adding threaded tabs to the sides

 

[Sasquatch]

I like sandwitches