bryopsis help please.

[matts125]

I have been fighting bryopsis for some time now, it has always stayed just on the lock line nozzels and over flow box. now it is begining to spread down lower and lower and i want it gone, I have quit feeding my tank for several months now and it is still there and growing. I have added sea hairs, long spine urchins, and tons of snails, Astrea's and a few turbos.
I just ordered a new 7 stage rodi unit (my old one is showing a tds reading of 25+) and just now as of today started running carbon for my first time ever in my reef. (if there is anything special I should know about running carbon please let me know)

tank parameters:
nitrates 0
phosphates 0
amonia 0
ph8.2
alk 7dkh
calcium 420
mag 1500
temp 76

Thanks for any input or advice!!

Matt

 

[Scooterman]

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38015&highlight=bryopsis

I just saw this a few days ago, probably a good start, follow the links & you'll end up back here!

My Opinion, you can beat this, In time!
I did wc's & removed rocks & scrubbed them over & over with a plastic brush & the old water, then rinsed in some clean old water or second tub If you will.
It won't happen over night.

 

[matts125]

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38015&highlight=bryopsis

I just saw this a few days ago, probably a good start, follow the links & you'll end up back here!

My Opinion, you can beat this, In time!
I did wc's & removed rocks & scrubbed them over & over with a plastic brush & the old water, then rinsed in some clean old water or second tub If you will.
It won't happen over night.

I know its no walk in the park to beat it, but I will beat it! even if I have to go through drastic measures.

here is my game plan thus far:
I have added more flow to my tank (2400 gph more) for a total of 8500 in a 115 gallon cube
my new RODI (7stage should help)
I will begin heavy water changes (30% a week)
I just ordered a gallon of kent marine tech M and will raise my mag up to around 1700 with it.
I will continue to hand remove it and scrub where I can then right after do a water change.
I will run filtersocks 100% time
I am now running carbon 100% time (lots of it)

I hope this works!!!

 

[jnarowe]

You are an interesting guy Matt. You advise others not to use a resevoir, then you replace an RO/DI for emitting 25 TDS?

Now you are battling bryopsis with animals that eat and poo. This is a common misconception BTW, but you cannot solve a water quality problem with animals (usually, although clams will consume a small amount of nutrients). While they absorb some nutrients, snails, sea hares, and the like only use a relatively small amount for life processes, and the rest comes out the other end.

So now you have piles of doo doo to contend with, on top of whatever was causing the bryopsis (25 TDS would do it). And why didn't you just change out the membrane and filters rather than buy a whole new RO/DI unit? But I digress...get a reservoir so your water filtration isn't cycling on and off whenever the tank needs water.

nitrates 0
phosphates 0
amonia 0
ph8.2
alk 7dkh
calcium 420
mag 1500
temp 76

I have a hard time believing these numbers and you should too.

Suggestions: Have a water testing party. Get a bunch of maniac reefers to bring their favorite kits over, and get an average for each parameter. This can be fun when combined with booze. Side benefit will be lots of suggestions about how you can find and solve the problem. Battling the bryopsis itself can be entertaining, but it will not solve the problem.

I would start at the wall. Test your incoming water for all params. Test your filtered water for all params. Test your water change water for all params, and then test the tank. This is a method of isolation. It helps drill down to the causitive source. Kind of like when Sherman and I visited with The Great Danh Nguyen and figured out that his town water had a LOT of ammonia in it.

I always run carbon and 100% mechanical filtration, plus a healthy amount of GFO, and thats with a tightly controlled water source.

Good luck dude...this can get ugly.

 

[NC2WA]

Matt,

Let me know how you fare. I am battling this right now and plan dosing a shock treatment of Mg. Current Mg reading is 1000pm, going to 1500ppm.

I too am hand scrubbing my rocks, but it just grows right back. My tank is fishless right now with the exception of an orange diamond goby. However, corals and one crocea clam seem unaffected.

While I am waiting several months before I re-stock the tank, the thought of boiling the rock was suggested. At first I was against the idea, but now it is on my mind. If the shock treatment of Mg does not work, then I may consider this option.

I too was suspect of the water readings I was getting so I went to a LFS and had my water tested. Ammonia, Nitrates, Phosphate all ZERO. But keep in mind, that Bryopsis feeds off the nitrates so I do not know the exact reading of nitrates.

However, I have not tried Sherman's suggestion:

I would start at the wall. Test your incoming water for all params. Test your filtered water for all params. Test your water change water for all params, and then test the tank. This is a method of isolation. It helps drill down to the causitive source

This is a sound suggestion and a good tshooting technique. Once I receive the callibration fluid for my TDS meter, I am going to try this suggestion.

If you want to get together and do a water test swap I am up for it.
let me know
Kirk

 

[jnarowe]

Also keep in mind that LFS don't generally use the top-tier test kits for servicing customers. Since virtually all salt we use has some level of ammonia, PO4, etc. you can do a quickee check on your kits using fresh made salt water. If your readings are zero for that, then your kits are not up to par.

 

[matts125]

why didn't you just change out the membrane and filters rather than buy a whole new RO/DI unit?
Why critisize my decision to buy a new RODI? My old one leaked and was in need of replacment FYI.

QOUTE: get a reservoir so your water filtration isn't cycling on and off whenever the tank needs water.QOUTE:
how does a trickle of new RODI water cause my filtration to cycle? it has aabsotlutly nothing to do with my filtration. also my top off only adds about 2 cups of water each time it comes on.



QOUTE:I have a hard time believing these numbers and you should too.QOUTE:
why should I have a hard time believing them, I tested my water and with multiple test kits (salifert) Why would i lie to myself about my water parameters?

I also get the feeling your thinking my tank is a bio waste land just covered in bryopsis, well its not, as I said it is just on my nozzels and over flow where my snails and urchins cant get to it. see this picture to see the extent of the bryopsis.

 

[NC2WA]

Matt,

Your tank looks impeccable than mine. Unforunately, and sadly to say, what is on your nozzles is on every piece of rock in my tank.

 

[NC2WA]

Jnarowe,

I was thinking about taking a sample of my tap water AND RO filtered water to a water store that specializes in water purification.

Is this a good idea??

 

[jnarowe]

NC2WA: water store? not sure what that is or whether they would test for the right things. Here we have well water and we can send or take it to a lab, but they test for human related stuff rather than what we are interested in. You might try Aquarium Water Testing. They have a nice package and you send your water in to them. I know some have criticised their results, but I feel the more results we have, the better we are able to determine the cause.

matts125: You stated:

how does a trickle of new RODI water cause my filtration to cycle? it has aabsotlutly nothing to do with my filtration. also my top off only adds about 2 cups of water each time it comes on.

These sentences don't make sense and I really don't think you understand water filtration as it is applied to reef tanks. If it only adds about 2 cups of water each time it comes on, how is it not cycling on and off?

Your coral sand fish are beautiful BTW. Very nice color. What I am trying to get you to understand is:

1. Just because the problem is only where your cleaning crew cannot get to does not mean it does not exist throughout your system.

2. You have stated that there is no need for an RO/DI reservoir more than once, and this is a mistake, plain and simple. There are many articles by very respected people discussing this at length but I can help you understand this with a simple test.

Temporarily disconnect your top-off & RO/DI from the tank. Leave it turned off for an hour or two, and then restart it catching the effluent in a small cup. Once you have 3 - 4 ounces, allow the effluent to run into a sink or bucket. Meanwhile, test the sample in the cup for TDS, ammonia, PO4, & Nitrate and record the value.

Then, after the effluent has been running freely for 10 minutes, catch a new sample and test it for the same parameters and record the results.

After the effluent has been running for 20 minutes, repeat the testing and record the results. What do you see here and why is that happening?

This is what is commonly referred to as TDS creep. Every time your RO/DI system starts up, some high TDS water comes out for the first few minutes. It happens to EVERYONE which is why most reef keepers use reservoirs to limit the number of times the filtration cycles on and off.

3. I am not trying to criticise you or belittle you. I am trying to explain that your bryopsis problem is very likely being caused by your top-off method. That's not set in stone, but you can't find your cause without eliminating issues one at a time. The only other way to work around TDS creep, is to install extra solenoids on timers and direct the first 10 - 20 minutes of water down the drain. But, since we can all use RO/DI water for reasons other than top-off, most reef keepers see a lot of added value in keeping a reservoir with plenty on hand. This means it is quick to make new water, especially in an emergency, and you have filtered water available for cleaning testing equipment, fish food, etc.

4. Again, I would be very suspicious of tests that read zero with that kind of visible algal outbreak. The bryopsis could be consuming all available nutrients up to the point of reading on your tests, but that would mean you are just a heartbeat away from a much bigger problem. You posted to get help and I would do exactly the same in your situation. In fact I would crap myself if I saw that much algae growth...I know I did when I had dinos...but I went through my system methodically, found causes, corrected them, and knocked down the dinos with extreme prejudice.

 

[matts125]

NC2WA:
I really don't think you understand water filtration as it is applied to reef tanks. If it only adds about 2 cups of water each time it comes on, how is it not cycling on and off?

I was under the impression that you were saying that the top off was messing with the reefs filtration, not the RODI. I was unaware that the start up phase of the RODI had elevated levels of TDS. you make a good point here however the RODI still shows 0TDS right after starting up.

Your coral sand fish are beautiful BTW. Very nice color.

Thank you!

1. Just because the problem is only where your cleaning crew cannot get to does not mean it does not exist throughout your system.

This I know and understand, thats why I want to get to the bottom of this now and get rid of this stuff!

2. You have stated that there is no need for an RO/DI reservoir more than once, and this is a mistake, plain and simple. There are many articles by very respected people discussing this at length but I can help you understand this with a simple test.

this makes more sense now that you described the elevated TDS after start up.


3. I am not trying to criticise you or belittle you.

No offense taken.

Thanks for your advise!

 

[jnarowe]

I was under the impression that you were saying that the top off was messing with the reefs filtration, not the RODI. I was unaware that the start up phase of the RODI had elevated levels of TDS. you make a good point here however the RODI still shows 0TDS right after starting up.

I doubt this very much. Not you, but the validity of the tests you are using. What is the incoming water supply TDS? Is it city or well water?

This I know and understand, thats why I want to get to the bottom of this now and get rid of this stuff!

Get rid of the underlying problem and it will go away on its own.

No offense taken.

Thanks for your advise!

Good...I don't come off very well via the forums (or in person) but my intent is to help wherever I can. Just a reminder, you can't drill down the causitive factor without going through every step in your system from start to finish. Start at the wall (water source) and tighten everything up. Question EVERYTHING.

Case in point: A guy with several tanks including 600g, 450g, and multiple species tanks was having a horrible time with corals. He tested and found copper in his system, even though he has never used it. After some back-and-forth on the forums and with people at his home, the final conclusion was that it was coming from a bronze fitting in between his RO/DI unit and his holding tank...the system was set up by a paid "pro" yet this small element eluded everyone for quite some time. And this one fitting essentially poisoned his system for corals.

 

[matts125]

I doubt this very much. Not you, but the validity of the tests you are using. What is the incoming water supply TDS? Is it city or well water?

it is city water.

I have 4 tds units on my RODI (Tap water, post carbon and sediment, post RO, post DI)

here are the results of each after imediate start up:

Tap 96ppm, post carbon and sediment 67ppm, post RO 1ppm, post DI 0 PPM

Here is the exact RODI unit I have. FYI http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/RO/DI...7-Stage-75-GPD-RO/DI-System/product_info.html

 

[jnarowe]

hmmmmm...not often you see 1 ppm after the membrane. Usually even with 98% rejection you still see about 3 ppm. So every time the unit starts up, you get 1 ppm after the membrane? That's certainly very interesting.

 

[matts125]

hmmmmm...not often you see 1 ppm after the membrane. Usually even with 98% rejection you still see about 3 ppm. So every time the unit starts up, you get 1 ppm after the membrane? That's certainly very interesting.

Yeah, but remember this uniit is brand new and hass only madeabout 25 gaallons thus far. I am sure it has cycled a few more times since I checked it so I will go ccheck again and see now.


Matt

 

[matts125]

Ok so I turned it on and this time the post RO spiked up to 30 TDS instantly but very quikly dropped back down to 2 then stayed there (about 30 seconds from 30-2 TDS) while the post DI was consistantly at 0 PPM.. Keep in mind this unit does have 2 DI cartridge's.

Matt

 

[jnarowe]

I have dual DI too...but there you see what happens. If every time the unit cycles on and you shoot through 30 TDS for a short while, then your dosing your system with that many times per day, and I would bet dollars to donuts it's PO4 and ammonia getting through. And the old unit was probably way worse. TDS creep is a REAL issue! :lol:

 

[NC2WA]

Jnarowe,

Correct. I would like to get a series of water test (more than a basis Salifert test can tes) done on:
1. Water from the tap
2. Water after it has gone thru my RO unit
3. Main display tank water.

Do you think these are the correct test to perform?
Is the correct way of troubleshooting this?

I do NOT use a reservoir, but after reading this it is something I might considered doing.
After tomorrow (when my calibration fluid arrives for my TDS meter), I should be able to tell you the TDS of my tap water and water from the RO unit.

 

[NC2WA]

I have dual DI too...but there you see what happens. If every time the unit cycles on and you shoot through 30 TDS for a short while, then your dosing your system with that many times per day, and I would bet dollars to donuts it's PO4 and ammonia getting through

Interesting.....This might be my issue...

I do NOT have DI as I was told that our water did not warrant a DI cartridge. Is this something that I should invest in??

Currently I am using SpectraPure filters and 90gpd membrane. The DI cartridge is empty at the moment.

 

[jnarowe]

I would test all 3 PLUS your water change water. This is an area that often gets overlooked because we believe that if we are putting in good "clean" water and using a salt mix, the resulting water shoudl be good to go. Unfortunately, what we often find, is elevated levels of ammonia, PO4 and sometimes even trates.

I don't believe that deal with water not needing DI resin. There are many things that can make it through the membrane and the resin is a great indicator if nothing else, of the true quality of your water. You can have zero TDS but still absorb stuff with resin. In fact, if you discuss this at length with Scott at SpectraPure, he will tell you that our tests do not have the ability to reveal true zero TDS. I would run resin anyway as a stop-gap. As your membrane ages, it will be less efficient as well. And if you truly don't "need" it, your resin should last forever right?

Here are my results from AWT in January:

Tank Water:
Water Test Summary
Ammonia (NH3-4) ........................Good ......................................... 0.008
Nitrite (NO2)................................Good ......................................... 0.003
Nitrate (NO3)...............................Good .............................................0.2
Phosphate (PO4) ..........................Good ........................................... 0.03
Silica (SiO2-3) .............................Good .............................................0.5
Potassium (K) ...............................Low............................................. 278
Calcium (Ca)................................Good ............................................ 380
Boron (B) ....................................Good .............................................3.9
Molybdenum (Mo)......................... High..............................................0.2
Strontium (Sr) .............................Good ........................................... 10.2
Magnesium (Mg) ..........................Good .......................................... 1294
Iodine (I¯)...................................Good ........................................... 0.03
Copper (Cu++) ............................Good ........................................... 0.01
Alkalinity (meq/L)..........................Low............................................ 2.04

Alk was low due an equipment issue.

RO/DI Water:
Water Test Summary
Ammonia (NH3-4) ........................Good ......................................... 0.004
Nitrite (NO2)................................Good ......................................... 0.002
Nitrate (NO3)...............................Good .............................................0.3
Phosphate (PO4) ..........................Good ........................................... 0.03
Silica (SiO2-3) .............................Good .............................................0.5
Potassium (K) ...............................Low.................................................0
Calcium (Ca).................................Low.................................................0
Boron (B) .....................................Low..............................................1.6
Molybdenum (Mo).........................Good .............................................0.0
Strontium (Sr) ..............................Low..............................................0.0
Magnesium (Mg) ...........................Low............................................. 139
Iodine (I¯)....................................Low............................................ 0.02
Copper (Cu++) ............................Good ........................................... 0.00
Alkalinity (meq/L)..........................Low............................................ 0.41

RC Discussion

And comment from Scott:

Jonathan,

Thank you for the test report. This is not the first we have received from AWT. We have started a collection.

Our only comment is that, while some of the numbers individually are believable, when you add them up, you get 141.8 PPM of "stuff" in your water.

I don't think you believe that there could be so much stuff in the DI water! A look at the magnesium value of 139 PPM makes it is hard to take the rest seriously. Even the remainder of 2.8 PPM is more that we typically measure out of a DI cartridge. We would have to question the methodogy of the individual tests, and ask are they using equipment explicitly suited to low-conductivity water, or are they using tests more suited to seawater. What are their measurable minimums for each element?

More to the point, how is your tank doing? Diatoms, hair algae, etc.?

So while we don't consider AWT to be the end all, be all, their tests can certainly be a point of discussion. I am most interested in red flags anyway. I have never gotten above a zero PO4 measurement on my tank with the Deltec/Merk kit and yet they show me at .03...that's why I am so interested in water quality, wall to drain.