Care to solve a mystery?

[Bomber]

 

[mojoreef]

Hiya Skippy, us younger folks can see just fine, lol you old folks just need better glasses

Narc...hehehe

 

[MtnDewMan]

Skipper, nice to see you here !!!!!!!

 

[Cosmic]

Ya ya nice try
Water changes are great for dilluting pollution in the water column but I dont see how thier going to touch anything in the Sandbed.

Well Mojo, you're sort of missing the point here
By doing regular water changes and unsettling the top of the DSB, you get much of what was going to be soaked up by the bed, before it ever gets TO the bed. When I do a water change, I turkey baste my rocks, getting it all into the water column. Then I shake my siphon over the sand, about 2" away. Enough to stir it up slightly,but not enough to cause clouds. this kicks up alot of that waste that was decreed to hit the bottom of the bed and collect.

Take this a step further and add a sandsifting goby, or similar critter, to further handle the top layers of the bed, and the bottom shouldn't be seeing much of anything for quite a long time. Now, if you do all this, and only vacuum say once a month, then the bed has plenty of time to grab up nutrients before you get around to removing them. But once a week (As I always do) gets it out as it starts to build up, keeping things on the lean side of clean

This is what I would call good DSB husbandry. Follow a maintenance plan similar to that, and you will have long term success, barring any stupid or unatural wipeouts of course :?
But the wipeouts aren't going to be caused by an accumulation of detritus, or heavy metals, god forbid. I can tell you that.

You asked how water changes get rid of the stuff in the bed. Well, my philosophy is to not let it get down in the bed to begin with

Cos

 

[mojoreef]

Yea Cos that sounds like perfect husbandry to me to. I think the methodology you are using will exted the life of that bed for a long time. Basically it sounds like you are using the bed for a temporary nutrient sponge inbetween cleanings.
Good on ya


Mike

 

[BlueHorizon]

Ant farms, gosh that brings back memories. It seems like only yesterday when I was watching these critters do their thing and being totally fascinated by it. Dang, it was the one in my son's bedroom!

I'm with TDWyatt on this one, for all its (DSB) faults it's dang fun to see all the worms, pods and such doing their thing. Heck I watch them nearly as much as I do the fish!

Actually this is not unknown, especially in the natural environment, my concern is what is doing it in the closed systems, and why has it not turned toxic in DSBs???

I would agree that from anecdotal evidence that I've seen and heard that it doesn't seem to turn toxic. (No one will ever accuse me of being a scientist ) But could it be that the levels are so small that there's little impact on the tank, much like the sulfides from volcanic vents in the ocean floor have little impact on the ocean as a whole? Could scale be relevant here? Could there be a benefit to hypo sulfur/ide content in our water column? (just throwing this out there, not making any claim it is, was or ever will be.)

 

[mojoreef]

Yep I have heard a ton of arguements on both sides of the fence. And have done alot of research both on my own and way to much reading, lol
For me I have come up with the conclution that a shallow bed is far more desirable with out the long term effects casued by a deep one. With a shallow you get an anerobic zone so denitrifaction is viable, you get the bugs and a good filtration system. What it also does is allow you to clean the bed of all the crap that a SB doesnt do (this is a big plus) and for me this takes away alot of the concerns I have with the deeper version of this type of filtration. Blue I dont think Sulfur really comes into play until the bed is greatly disturbed, its just another one of thoses things that sinks.


Good conversation


Mike

 

[Cosmic]

Blue I dont think Sulfur really comes into play until the bed is greatly disturbed, its just another one of thoses things that sinks.

Actually, I was just reading the other day about this. I found it in Borneman's Aquarium corals book.

Anyways, he was discussing skeletogenesis, and how it occurred in coral skeletons. It mentioned the fact that citrates, sulfates, and ammonium, along with a "lower" pH, actually promoted the growth of calcite in the skeleton instead of the formation of aragonite. The details were not very specific, and my memory is a bit blurry, but I think that was how he stated it.

But because of this, it's very possible our closed system corals are actually putting out way more in the way of calcites than would be normal in a reef. At least that's the theory I came up with by this limited reading.

Any opinions on this?

Cos

 

[mojoreef]

LOL Cos one can of worms after another, hehehe
Yep citrates, sulfates, and ammonium ions are not what you want in a stoney tank. From what I know all stoneys make thier skelitons from argonite not calcite (well a couple of softies do). So the presence of these in any great ammount can really hurt your corals. On the other hand ammonium and a couple types of nutrients help the tissue growth. So as always it always boils down to water quality. YOu do a phosphate test on the sand bed yet????


Mike

 

[Cosmic]

[qoute]Yep citrates, sulfates, and ammonium ions are not what you want in a stoney tank. From what I know all stoneys make thier skelitons from argonite not calcite (well a couple of softies do). [/quote]


Whether or not you want them in your stoney tank is a moot point. You know as well as I that the ammonium ions are always going to be present in high enough concentration to influence the formation of calcite, if they are well off enough to promote tissue growth. Add in the sulfates being released from the bed on a slow, ongoing basis (perhaps by a sandsifting goby?), and then the citrates (I have NO idea where these would come from, or to what concentration it will be present). My guess is that because these would be present on a frequnt basis, you would WANT to consider some sort of softies in the tank, despite the alleleopathy they might bring with them to the game.

Since softies use the 3 to produce calcite to grow, then that would be a natural method of removing these harmful substances, wouldn't it? *grins*
I'm not saying toss a few Honking leathers in there, but some zo's or other somewhat appealing softie would do the trick quite nicely I'd think.

YOu do a phosphate test on the sand bed yet????

:shock: :? :x :idea: :idea: :idea:

Umm....I haven't had a chance? LOL
What are you expecting to see? High concentrations of phosphate bound to my sand? I've always been an avid Kalk doser, so PO4 has never been much of a problem for me. So, no, haven't tested, but haven't noticed anything in the way of algal blooms recently, so haven't worried over that. When the time comes, it shall be done:?

BTW, you have a PM on the *other* board, about a certain echinata

Cos

 

[mojoreef]

Yea but thier are other things like aglae that can supress and/or absorb them to. Remember a big thing is the PH, the ph has to be pretty low to really put these in play (thats why they do so well so deep in the bed). a good thrashing of the bed will send it into the column however.
You know the deeper and deeper I keep looking into this filtration system the more it scares me.

The phosphate test is just for my personal knowledge.

I will go look at your non echinata now

 

[Cosmic]

I understand the fact that low pH is a factor needed for calcite formation to occur, but this happens naturally inside said coral. The coral uptakes these elements into it's tissue, where it can manipulate those with a lower in-body pH, effectively forming calcite. Am I wrong?

Now, I'm not saying that ALL sulfates, ammonium, and citrates (still confused as to what these are) are uptaken, but trying to state that IF they ARE prevalent on a regular basis, then a few softies in the tank would help to keep them under control for longer than a tank w/ no softies.

This would also help to explain why "xenia refugiums" do so well as a nutrient uptake mechanism, wouldn't it?

You know the deeper and deeper I keep looking into this filtration system the more it scares me.

Are you referring to DSB's, or your soon to be cryptic system, or filtration in general?? I certainly HOPE you aren't second guessing your cryptic system before you've even gotten it hooked up!

I will go look at your non echinata now

OK, OK, I concede to the fact that it's NOT an echinata. BUT...I'm not very sure that it's a Tort either. I've been looking around for some closeups of Tort polyps, since mine has very distinctive polyps on it. Almost like an inflated star shape, if that makes sense. Check out the "whole truth about Tort's thread on this board, and look at my polyps if you want clarification.

Cos

 

[mojoreef]

The coral uptakes these elements into it's tissue, where it can manipulate those with a lower in-body pH, effectively forming calcite. Am I wrong?

Well I dont know, lol. Were pretty much guessing at that point. From what I do know is that it is possible for sure, But a wholes series of things would have to happen perfectly for it to come true...kinda

Now, I'm not saying that ALL sulfates, ammonium, and citrates (still confused as to what these are) are uptaken, but trying to state that IF they ARE prevalent on a regular basis, then a few softies in the tank would help to keep them under control for longer than a tank w/ no softies.

Yep that is true but macros should have about the same effect, but in reality most macros play the same chemical game also so its six of one or a half a dozen of the other, if you went with softies or macros to uptake.

Xenia is a great uptaker but also one of the worst when it goes south. To scary for me.

I am actually looking forward to the cryptic zone filtration. I do believe in its premise for sure. I was refering to the DSB thing.

Yea its not a tort for sure to, coralites are wrong. Its an acro in the bushynesis varity, I would start your search with those.


Mike

 

[Maxx]

okay guys,
So this is a confusing thread for me....while I love bio...I wasnt so thrilled w/ chemistry in school....Imagine my joy at discovering that my favorite way to spend money requires more chemistry understanding than I could ever hope for.... :?
So here is the question....Have we, (you knowledgable folk out here) decided DSB's are good, bad, or ugly? I remember the large thread on another board where Mike and I discussed it at length, but it seems his position has changed a bit. I have a 20 gallon tank w/ a 10 gallon refugium/sump. In this refugium/sump I have a 2 1/2-3 inch deep sand bed. Along the side of this sand bed, I can see black spots, (hydrogen sulfide?) and green spots, (algae) and even some light brown spots, (Who knows). I have lots of critters, (pods, a couple of small fan worms, lots of worm tracks), and a good chunk of calurpa. My tank isnt quite a year old yet, (I know, moron cycle...sigh) but everything is stable.
Ammonia..0.0
Nitrite...0.0
Nitrate...0.0
Ph...8.1-2
Salinty...1.024-5
Calcium...420
dKH...8.0
I will be setting up a larger aquarium here soon...(Bugetary constraints), and was planning on using crushed coral as a substrate, and once again a refugium w/ a 2-3 inch sand bed for nutrient export. Now I need to do some maintenance on my sand bed? I thought we didnt want to stir up the sand bed. I understand Cos uses a sand sifting goby...wont this eat up the critters that make my sand bed living? Could I set up two sand beds so that I can take one off line and clean it out every year and start over, leaving one operating in order to not lose efficiency?
Could one of you guys just give me the Answers to the World's Problems????
(course I'll happily settle for an answer here....)
Thanks guys
Nick

 

[mojoreef]

HIya Nick aint this hobby just fun. I havent really changed my position on anything when it comes to DSB's. In the arguement between those who love and those that dont, thier always seems to be a straight blunt statements that it wont work and everything will die or that they are the best thing going and will cook ya dinner to. Well both statements are wrong. DSB's will work great for dentrification and bug life, but they have thier limits. Its the limits that werent explained when they first came out, and it these that will bite you down the line. YOur right on the goby it does work against the principle of life in the sand, and yes you cannot stir you bed as it is or yoiu will be hurting for sure. These are just a couple of cons with the DSB concept. The main one is phosphate and where does it go.
On your new tank buddy all I can offer you is my personal experence and what I did and would do. The CC and a good maintence schedule of syphoning every month is the best way to take care of detritus in your main display. In the refugium I would only put in about and 1 1/2 of sand in thier. This will stay mostly aerobic and have a small portion of it as anerobic. This will help with bug and larvae growth and give you some nutrient export. And if it gets plugged down the line a simple syphon once again will take care of your problems.
See Nick the anoxic zone (basically everything from a 1 1/2 down) of a DSB the way it is done these days. Serves no purpose for us in this hobby. It has no life forms beyond nasty bacteria, enzynes and microbail mass and the occasional worm passing through. Add that to the fact it contain sulfides and a whole chemical stew of stuff and its a scary option we dont need...so......why bother????

Mike

 

[Maxx]

the best thing going and will cook ya dinner to.

Got one of those, sometimes she even brings home a six pack after a hard days work, her name is Rocio...

In the refugium I would only put in about and 1 1/2 of sand in thier. This will stay mostly aerobic and have a small portion of it as anerobic. This will help with bug and larvae growth and give you some nutrient export.

Okay this supports what I have read here and elsewhere, and is what I had planned for the refugium.

And if it gets plugged down the line a simple syphon once again will take care of your problems.

Umm...what sort of symptoms does a plugged sand bed exhibit??? Higher phospahte levels? To "unplug" my sand bed, are you talking about basically gravel washing, or actual physical removal, rinsing, (thereby killing everything in it??) and replacing it?
I had thought about setting up twin inline refugiums of 10 gallons or so, which would allow me to remove one for cleaning, (if necessary) and keep the other online for nutrient export etc...Just out of curiousity Mike, what do you use for your bilogical filtration?? Just the LR and macro's???

 

[Maxx]

okay, this quote thing is annoying me....all the quoted parts in the previous post after the part about my GF, are my replies to mojo's statements... :x

 

[mojoreef]

Boy Oh Boy and the guys quotes himself

Umm...what sort of symptoms does a plugged sand bed exhibit??? Higher phospahte levels? To "unplug" my sand bed, are you talking about basically gravel washing, or actual physical removal, rinsing, (thereby killing everything in it??) and replacing it?

Most of the ones I have seen that have gone down showed the following. Phosphates that could be gotten rid of (this is shown as patch hair algae and cyano that appears in dfferent locations constantly until the food source is gone then it shows up in other locations) basically a never ending war with nuisence algae. Also the loss of the anerobic and aerobic zones. As the anoxic zone fills with stuff it cant process it rises, as it rises the upper zone shrink.
With a shallow sand bed you dont have to worry about the nasties in the lower regoins on the anoxic, so you can stir it and syphon it at will with out worring about it. If you are worried about bugs that maybe lost simply put a fine meshed net at the other end of the syphon hose. As per the bacteria in the anerobic zone (the ones that eat nitrates..your friends) dont , they are faculative and have the ability to live in water with and with out oxygen. If the water has oxygen they will consume it for energy, once that is all used up they will then revert to nitrates. so all its good and the detritus is now gone and no big complicated system is required to process it.

I had thought about setting up twin inline refugiums of 10 gallons or so, which would allow me to remove one for cleaning, (if necessary) and keep the other online for nutrient export etc...Just out of curiousity Mike, what do you use for your bilogical filtration?? Just the LR and macro's???

You can do this no problem bud but really if you maintain it with syphoning once a month or so you dont need to take one off line. For filtration I use Live rock and a big skimmer and alot of flow. Remember a DSB is its own bioload and puts alot of filtration demands on your system in itself.

Mike

 

[Maxx]

Boy Oh Boy and the guys quotes himself

Oh Yeah, well...ummm...you're....you're the one with the thick candy shell...tttthhhppppppptttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!
Yeah, I'm a moron, the quote thingy kicked my butt...so what....That quote thingy's just for sissies anyhow!

All kidding aside, I really appreciate all the good info Mike,
Thanks,
Nick