Closed Loop

[Saltyfish]

Do you think you can put in a closed loop without having to drill?

If I go over the top of the tank on one end I could do it. I am actually looking at drilling the suction line and puting the return over the top.

Another way is if I can fit a mag18 into my overflow box then I will do a small closed loop over the top.

I might get the 630 gallon shipped to the house and set it up in the garage so I can design a nice closed loop on that.

After talking to other reefers and seeing what they have set up such as Dang's tank he has 18,000 GPH through his using tunze's that will add up in electricity so might be worth it to look at a closed loop for a bigger tank rather than use a ton of powerheads.

I am still not deciding on anything yet until I get some answers from manufactures.

 

[CarlaW]

To be honest, Tunze and Vortech are way more efficient and can turn out better flow patterns with the use of a controller than a closed loop ever thought of doing.
How can you argue with Dangs success my friend? No one has the colonies he has, maybe Kevin, and what do they use for flow inside the tank?

 

[roscoe]

If I go over the top of the tank on one end I could do it. I am actually looking at drilling the suction line and puting the return over the top.

Another way is if I can fit a mag18 into my overflow box then I will do a small closed loop over the top.

I might get the 630 gallon shipped to the house and set it up in the garage so I can design a nice closed loop on that.

After talking to other reefers and seeing what they have set up such as Dang's tank he has 18,000 GPH through his using tunze's that will add up in electricity so might be worth it to look at a closed loop for a bigger tank rather than use a ton of powerheads.

I am still not deciding on anything yet until I get some answers from manufactures.

James I am running 3 MP40s and 3 Tunze in my sytem at 20000GPH. Between the 6 pumps if running full speed is about 160-180w. They are on controllers so they all is never running at full speed. So I am consuming (guess) around 100-150w total at any given time. Now try to get 200000 GPH with external pumps that consume 300-400w each constantly 24/7 365 days a year. Lets use the hammerhead for example which put out roughly 5400 GPH. You would need 4 of them to match the GPH of my set up. Mulitiply 300-400w by 4 you get 1200-1600w. That is 10 times more power being consumed to get the same GPH. So it will not be cheaper or even close to equal energy consumption of a quality PH.

 

[Saltyfish]

I am not saying cutting out the tunzes out completely.

or any powerhead for that matter.

Everyones tank is different with the flow they need, for the rock placement and coral growth they have. I have taken pictures of coral I have gotten from Dang and he cant believe some of the growth I have gotten on a few of my pieces.

I am just saying electric wise if I need 250W to 300W for powerheads I personally would look at putting in a closed loop. I like things nice and neat, like 1 power cord rather then 6 to 10 to have the same GPH output, not flow.

I am sure everyone says what they have is great and it is the best and everything else. I am sure for you it is made of gold for me I think I need to go to a closed loop system to get what I am looking for.

I am an engineer by trade and my focus has been pump engineering for over 20 years. When you get into rating and spec I have a pretty good grasp on things. A maxjet power head is not the same as a K7 powerhead. Some of the things people are comparing to a closed loop pump is like apples to oranges. I do not believe a closed loop would ever completely replace the powerheads in a reef tank unless the tnak was big enough that you would need pure closed loop for flow.

BTW Kevin has closed loop w/ sea swirls and powerheads (tunzes on one and MP40 on the other if I remember right). From what I remember nothing coming up from the bottom. I could be wrong on the bottom return I just do not remember seeing it on his systems.

 

[CarlaW]

BTW Kevin has closed loop w/ sea swirls and powerheads (tunzes on one and MP40 on the other if I remember right). From what I remember nothing coming up from the bottom. I could be wrong on the bottom return I just do not remember seeing it on his systems.

Yep, I know that. he is using the powerheads in addition because he cannot get the flow he wanted with just the closed loop.
Well, I am not gonna argue with an engineer, I know better. Hope what you end up with works for you.
Remember I have closed loops also, and an 8 foot tank, just trying to share the knowledge. If I had it to do over again, I would have shut down the closed loops.

 

[Saltyfish]

James I am running 3 MP40s and 3 Tunze in my sytem at 20000GPH. Between the 6 pumps if running full speed is about 160-180w. They are on controllers so they all is never running at full speed. So I am consuming (guess) around 100-150w total at any given time. Now try to get 200000 GPH with external pumps that consume 300-400w each constantly 24/7 365 days a year. Lets use the hammerhead for example which put out roughly 5400 GPH. You would need 4 of them to match the GPH of my set up. Mulitiply 300-400w by 4 you get 1200-1600w. That is 10 times more power being consumed to get the same GPH. So it will not be cheaper or even close to equal energy consumption of a quality PH.

Ok lets break it down then each of your vortex MP40
between 100 and 3,000 gallons per hour of flow not output
to run at 3000 gallons per hour of flow not output you are using 40W

HammerHead
6000 GPH output not flow.
350W

you would need 4 of your vortex MP40 to equal 1 hammer head.

Price of hammerhead you can find at $225.00 to $400.00 depending on where you buy and how far you look.

Your Vortex are $420.00 each that is $1680.00 to equal 1 hammerhead

you can pay for it upfront and go with MP40 or you can pay as you go.

There are downsides to either way you go like you can't aim the closed loop as well or you get a small output stream.

on the other hand you can't stick your mp40 in the sand or too close to it without it sucking it up or moving it .

The moral is no matter what you have or what you decided on it was what was best for you and we could sit here all day and argue what is the best way. To be perfectly honest I do not believe in there is a best way for anything. In this hobby it is all about what is best for you and what you hope to get out of it.

 

[Saltyfish]

Yep, I know that. he is using the powerheads in addition because he cannot get the flow he wanted with just the closed loop.
Well, I am not gonna argue with an engineer, I know better. Hope what you end up with works for you.
Remember I have closed loops also, and an 8 foot tank, just trying to share the knowledge. If I had it to do over again, I would have shut down the closed loops.

I believe Kevin does not get the flow he wants because he feeds from top down. Without testing we will never know.

For now I will be doing everything over the top of my tank for testing and see what I like best.

I do not like the idea of spending $2,000 upfront on powerheads.

Who knows maybe I will just add a few more K2's pointing down in the dead spots.

 

[golf nut]

No, it would still be 3600 GPH. The pump isn't actually sucking, since pumps push, not suck, but being flooded, by 3600 gph of water. That same 3600 gph of water is being pushed out the other side. It's the same 3600 gph of water.

It is?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCgLY0baPOk

Could you explain why a reverse carlson device works ?

 

[nsamouroux]

Now don't go bringing that logic stuff in here... We were having fun!

I know for a certainty that my return pump rated for 5500gph at 5' head can just about rip my flesh off if I block the intake!

 

[nsamouroux]

Since Youtube has apparently kicked the bucket for the time being: Yes, pumps certainly DO suck water. How else could you take a Magnum 350 canister filter (a basic impeller-based pump design) and set it on top of the tank and still get water flow through it? It's certainly not gravity feeding or siphoning when the canister is sitting on top of the tank :lol:. You see it all the time in well pumps, or stream-side pumps for irrigation (a reference for all you fellow redneck farmer types). The pump sits a good distance from the water source and out of any possible flood plane and SUCKS water that entire distance from the water source and then sends it through the output plumbing. I personally have used a VERY large pump to take water from a natural stream / spring and pump it uphill almost 100 yards (hill climbed 300' in 100 yards or so) to a koi pond.

Pumps most *certainly* can suck water, not just push it.

 

[Saltyfish]

Since Youtube has apparently kicked the bucket for the time being: Yes, pumps certainly DO suck water. How else could you take a Magnum 350 canister filter (a basic impeller-based pump design) and set it on top of the tank and still get water flow through it? It's certainly not gravity feeding or siphoning when the canister is sitting on top of the tank :lol:. You see it all the time in well pumps, or stream-side pumps for irrigation (a reference for all you fellow redneck farmer types). The pump sits a good distance from the water source and out of any possible flood plane and SUCKS water that entire distance from the water source and then sends it through the output plumbing. I personally have used a VERY large pump to take water from a natural stream / spring and pump it uphill almost 100 yards (hill climbed 300' in 100 yards or so) to a koi pond.

Pumps most *certainly* can suck water, not just push it.

man logic stuff, are you sure of what you are talking about I thought it was using reverse gravity feeding, I could be wrong though LOL

 

[nsamouroux]

Well, I'll try to put it into basic terminology since you're only an engineer and all (the first step in recovery is admitting that you're an engineer! :lol, the centrifugal force (IE spinning) of the pump impeller temporarily suspends gravity in an area directly porportionate to the size / wattage draw of the pump you're using. The PVC pipe intake focuses this field so that the antigravity effect is directed towards the water source that you want to pump from. The difference in relative gravity (similar to the wormholes in Star Trek!) makes the water rush into the pump where the spinning impeller then pushes it upwards to the destination. Heck, this is such a simple concept that a redneck farmer watering his crops in Steven's County where I grew up can figure it out, I don't see why you had have Paul @ OM tell you all of this.

My biggest hurdle right now is to find out whether I can use this space / time / gravity disruption field thingy to force the silt in my tank to settle further and stay there when I turn on the pumps. I might have to email the Romulan Embassy and see what they think, since it should be the same principles they use in their cloaking devices...

Ok, I need more sleep, or less caffeine. Jeebus.

 

[roscoe]

Ok James you win LOL. I don't believe dude from OM. So what he is saying is my MP40w is only pushing 1600 GPH? I very highly doubt it but what ever. You are a engineer by trade with pumps and all so I guess you know what you are talking about. I will say though once you set the CL up you might not like the flow either. Just trying to help out bro from a unbias POV. I have never had a CL application before but have seen plenty in action and was never impressed with the flow with just a CL. How ever the system that integrated the 2 together seems to be the best option.

 

[CarlaW]

Well, I'll try to put it into basic terminology since you're only an engineer and all (the first step in recovery is admitting that you're an engineer! :lol, the centrifugal force (IE spinning) of the pump impeller temporarily suspends gravity in an area directly porportionate to the size / wattage draw of the pump you're using. The PVC pipe intake focuses this field so that the antigravity effect is directed towards the water source that you want to pump from. The difference in relative gravity (similar to the wormholes in Star Trek!) makes the water rush into the pump where the spinning impeller then pushes it upwards to the destination. Heck, this is such a simple concept that a redneck farmer watering his crops in Steven's County where I grew up can figure it out, I don't see why you had have Paul @ OM tell you all of this.

My biggest hurdle right now is to find out whether I can use this space / time / gravity disruption field thingy to force the silt in my tank to settle further and stay there when I turn on the pumps. I might have to email the Romulan Embassy and see what they think, since it should be the same principles they use in their cloaking devices...

Ok, I need more sleep, or less caffeine. Jeebus.

Clear as a bell now.....................

 

[nsamouroux]

Well, I could have just explained it to any normal / rational person by saying "yep. Pumps can suck water, not just push it" like Golf Nut did a few posts ago, but Salty needs the entire process laid out for him so he can analyze it from an engineering standpoint :badgrin:.

Based on what I read here Roscoe, he's actually planning on using a small closed loop only because the powerheads on his peninsula setup can't create the flow necessary to push detritus off the sand bed and flush it all the way to the far panel and then reflect it back towards the overflow box. He was looking at using a small closed loop system along the bottom of the tank to flush detritus upwards in the water column where a powerhead on the far side would be able to push it towards the surface and the opposite wall into the overflow box. He can't generate that same flow pattern using only powerheads since his sand would go everywhere, so has to incorporate a closed loop *and* a large powerhead or two to do the same job.

As for the flow / gph ratings on the prop-based pumps, until I can test it for myself with a flow meter and one of my Koralia 8 powerheads I'll just be happy with "it pushes a hell of a lot of water and only draws 18 watts" I tested the power draw myself with a Kill-a-watt, so I can verify that claim! :lol:

 

[golf nut]

I don't believe dude from OM.

I find that a little rude.

 

[roscoe]

I find that a little rude.

Really I find you a little rude for calling me rude!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!

 

[nsamouroux]

It should be a simple test... Got a flow meter of some sort? Stick it directly in front of a Koralia / Tunze / Vortec at full blast and see what numbers come up I'd do it myself just out of curiosity, but I'm lacking the flow meter at the moment.

 

[roscoe]

Well, I could have just explained it to any normal / rational person by saying "yep. Pumps can suck water, not just push it" like Golf Nut did a few posts ago, but Salty needs the entire process laid out for him so he can analyze it from an engineering standpoint :badgrin:.

Based on what I read here Roscoe, he's actually planning on using a small closed loop only because the powerheads on his peninsula setup can't create the flow necessary to push detritus off the sand bed and flush it all the way to the far panel and then reflect it back towards the overflow box. He was looking at using a small closed loop system along the bottom of the tank to flush detritus upwards in the water column where a powerhead on the far side would be able to push it towards the surface and the opposite wall into the overflow box. He can't generate that same flow pattern using only powerheads since his sand would go everywhere, so has to incorporate a closed loop *and* a large powerhead or two to do the same job.

As for the flow / gph ratings on the prop-based pumps, until I can test it for myself with a flow meter and one of my Koralia 8 powerheads I'll just be happy with "it pushes a hell of a lot of water and only draws 18 watts" I tested the power draw myself with a Kill-a-watt, so I can verify that claim! :lol:

Yeah 18w for what 2000-3000 GPH? See what I mean how much of a saving it is on cost of power usage compared to a CL pump. You can have 20 of those things in your tank and use the same power as a CL pump and have 20 times more flow. I need one of those killa watt thingys to test all my power consumption.

 

[CarlaW]

Well, I could have just explained it to any normal / rational person by saying "yep. Pumps can suck water, not just push it" like Golf Nut did a few posts ago, but Salty needs the entire process laid out for him so he can analyze it from an engineering standpoint :badgrin:.

I could have settled for Pumps can suck.