Copperband Butterfly not eating

[Sherman]

From everything I've ever gathered, it's not possible to accurately measure the pH of RO. It's simply too unstable and can bounce all over the place. My only experience measuring it myself was extremely erratic readings in the same container. It would drop to well below 7.0, then I'd use the pH probe to swirl the water and the pH would spike to higher than 9.0, and eventually decrease again. Because of this, I've never bothered trying to pH match my FW dips. My guess is it has something to do with the chemical make-up of what's in the water, and aeration.

As drastic as that sounds, I'd love to hear correction if I'm mistaken.

 

[leebca]

Actually, the FW bath is very easy on the fish when done properly. I'm not suggesting it wasn't properly done, but something was (obviously) not right.

Sherman has posted part of what I think the answer may be. The pH measurement by a meter of pure water (e.g., distilled water) will and cannot be accurate. The meter measuring requires some ions in the water to verify the quantity of hydrogen ions. Sorry for being a bit technical here. In essence, the meter doesn't do a good job of measuring pH.

The fact that you said you continued to add Baking Soda without change indicated the pH was actually unknown (and likely high) and the bath chemistry was off. Baking Soda is used to raise the pH. Most pure water is near a pH of 7.0 and the Baking Soda raises the pH of that water to whatever number you need to settle it.

Did you use Methylene Blue in the water? That will usually be enough to set up some ionic conductivity. However, a pinch of table salt dissolved in a cup of the water to measure the initial pH would be a suggestion.

From what you've written the pH was not proper and the fish 'told you' so.

 

[NC2WA]

Crap !!!

I thought Baking Soda was to reduce pH.. I will redo the steps again.
Hmm, is it odd that my pH read 8.7 from the RO water vat. When I used baking soda, it was bringing down (i thought), but the reverse was happening..Oh the poor fish, I feel soooooo bad (and ashamed) now.

No Meth Blue was used in the water. What will this provide??

I would like to clear up all the black spots before it goes into the main display. I was reading Lee's sticky on a formalin bath and it seems alittle overwhelming, so this is why I am going to try a FW dip first.

thanks

Kirk

 

[azgard1]

Kirk, I hope things are improving for you. 8.7 seems unusually high, it may be worth getting a second test from another kit. Meth Blue is good for oxygen, compensation for possible toxic problems if your fish was caught with chemicals, and also it will calm your fish in the process of a freshwater dip.

I wish you good luck in your work with your fish.

 

[NC2WA]

they are..the fish is alert and swimming around, however it is not eating as much as i would like. I noticed the fish is very thin in dorsal area which shows sign of not enough nutrtion.

 

[leebca]

Not to panic or feel bad. We've all been there, Kirk.

Don't give up on it. When you begin with the water and check the pH you should question any reading off from 7.0 by more than 0.5 units. Add some table salt as suggested, to a separate cup of the water and see if you get a different reading.

As asgzard wrote, Methylene Blue does exactly what he wrote. It was also used to counteract ammonia poisoning and cyanide poisoning. I can't verify the latter, though.

You are correct, the Formalin process is very hard to control and more challenging. It does, IMO have the advantage of working better than the FW treatment.

Hang in there!

 

[NC2WA]

Lee,

Thanks for the encouraging words. I am a tenancious person and will try everything to ensure this fish has a fighting chance.

I will update you with the results.

Kirk

 

[NC2WA]

OK, I tried this evening for another FW dip. The first thing I did was to get some RO water in a glass and check the pH level. A whopping 9.0. I am going to get some calibration solution to calibrate pH meter AND take a glass of RO water to a LFS and have them check it. I have never had plain RO water with pH this high. What can cause such an oddity??

Needless to say, until I find out what the true pH level is, I am not going to perform any FW dips.

Kirk

 

[leebca]

Good idea about not going forward until you get the facts, Kirk.

The RO membrane doesn't stop the hydrogen and hydroxide ions from passing through it. It may mean that the starting water (before it reaches the membrane) has a high pH. RO does not 'correct' pH of the original water, unless that pH is related to larger molecules/ions.

 

[krisfal]

Wow 9.0! My RO water is about 7.0. You definitely need to get that number verified. I would think at that high it would be an issue using your RO for top-off or making new saltwater (do you have to adjust the PH of your new saltwater?). The top off is probably not a real big issue in a tank your size now that I think about it but I would be concerned about the WCs.

Kirk have you thought about just buying some distilled water for the FW dip? I imagine the PH would be closer to 7 in the distilled and then you could use the baking soda to bring it up.

 

[NC2WA]

Kris,

Not a bad idea. When I do water changes, the pH in the main display tank is around 8.1/8.2. I am hoping it is as simple as calibrating my pH meter. All of my filters and RO membrane are Spectrapure. The filters and membrane are only 6 months old, but it appears the sediment filter needs replacing. Do not know if this could cause an increase in pH.

If I were to test the pH of the main water supply from the tap, is this a valid test using a Milwaukee pH meter??

Kirk

 

[leebca]

Testing the 'before treatment' water (in this case your tap water) is a good idea to see what it is at the start. Then, you may narrow down where the pH is rising (the filters, for instance, or the source water).

 

[NC2WA]

Lee,

Thanks. I performed a simple test this evening. Fill a cup of tap water and tested the pH and temp. The temperature of the water was 77.2 degrees and the pH (drum roll please), was an astonishing 9.6 !!!!!!!! If you recall, my earlier thread I had the pH at 9.0, so the RO unit is working to a degree. Now the question, do I change sediment and carbon filters or will this not get me anything????

Kirk

 

[Sherman]

Kirk, I don't believe those will change anything. The high pH water is the product of the RO unit, as mentioned on a previous page.

 

[NC2WA]

Sherman,

Confused here, how could the high pH level be a product of the RO unit when the source of the water never made it to the RO unit? It came straight from the water faucet??

Kirk

 

[leebca]

Remember that the RO unit membrane's job is to 'filter' or hold back the large ions and molecules. It will not affect pH UNLESS the pH of the water is affected by large molecules. In general, pH is a measurement of the hydrogen ion concentration and hydrogen ions pass through the membrane, as well as their counterparts, the hydroxide ion.

A pH change of source water is not easy. Your water supply, simply put, is alkaline. I'm surprised your water supplier is allowed to do this. Do you know where your tap comes from? That is, city water? outside source? Then do you know the water's origin? That is, is it well water, river water, reservoir, etc.? Next I would contact your supplier (i.e., the city or town) and ask for a typical analysis of the tap water you are getting. Also request to know what the pH range of that water is.

All the above assumes you are getting an accurate pH measurement. Make sure of this, first.

You should read this article. It contains some very good information about tap water found around the country: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

If the final RO 'purified water" has a high pH you'll just have to deal with it. I would test the water for phosphates, carbonates (alkalinity), as well as copper. See if these numbers compare with the analysis you are going to get. Have you tested the RO water for total dissolved solids (TDS)? What are these results?

By 'deal with it' I mean 'live with it.' From now on you'll have to be aware of this and adjust the pH to where you want it to be before you use it. Although for making up salt water from artificial salts, it will probably be okay. Still, you want to understand the root cause for the high pH to be sure there isn't something else in the water you don't want.

Like previously recommended, for now, use store bought distilled water for your FW baths/dips.

 

[Sherman]

Confused here, how could the high pH level be a product of the RO unit when the source of the water never made it to the RO unit? It came straight from the water faucet??

RIGHT! That part where you said TAP water... I missed that part. I guess it was sort of an important part of your post.

Sorry! Carry on. Nothing to see here. <hides sheepishly>

 

[NC2WA]

Well,

Bad news to report. I came home today from work and found the CBB dead. Most likely starved to death. Thank you for all the responses.


Lee,

Since this fish had what appeared black ich, how should I clean this tank properly (ie, remove all the "ichness") for the next fish I plan on QTing. I want to be overly protective rather than not do nothing at all.

Thanks
Kirk

 

[Jan]

aaawww....how sad. Sorry for your loss.

well it certainly was not for lack of effort on your part.

 

[azgard1]

Sorry for your loss Kirk.

I really respect your efforts to ask for help. It shows a genuine heart to provide the best care you can. Lee, has been a tremendous inspiration as well as yours and many contributors. It is so cool to see honest exchange and the smoke a mirrors removed from this hobby.