Cycling new tank: proper NH3 level?

[scytale]

(Not new to reef-keeping, but new to cycling a tank.)

How high should the Ammonia concentration be to adequately start a tank cycling?

I used liquid NH3 (not rotten shrimp) and put the NH3 level at 1ppm.

It's 8 days later now, and although I have a vigorous diatom bloom, my ammonia level has already dropped down to 0--but I haven't detected ANY nitrites or nitrates throughout the process...

The specs:

20T glass nano
18# base/dry rock (no sand, yet)
+2 golf-ball-sized piece of live rock. (to seed)
(using old API test-kits for this)

Should I have put more ammonia in?

Also, I have a really nice piece of live Tonga branch that I'm going to use in the nano--but at what concentration would the ammonia be toxic to the coraline, sponges, etc. that are already established on the live rock?
(The branch is sitting in my main tank's fuge right, under florescent light--but the sooner I can get it into the nano, and under HQI+PCs lights, the better... )

 

[jag3534]

Take your water to the store to be tested. That can tell you if your kits are off. If the tank is cycled, the trates will slowly build. And it shouldn't take much to get a cycle started. The tonga would probably be fine to put in there, but i'd get my water tested at the store, just to double check where you're at.

 

[DonW]

You didn't need to add anything. Basicly adding dead stuff causes a bacterial bloom real fast so you see the decline in N fast. This doesn't mean you've created a stable bacteria population. If you go slow the bacteria will grow to the point of handling the current bioload and can be manipulated by increasing the bioload. If you go fast and get a bloom then your going to see a die off and instability.

Don

 

[gotfish]

If you're going to do the ammonia method, you want to get your ammonia up to around 5ppm by adding a little bit of ammonia daily. Test daily to make sure it stays there. When it gets to the point where the ammonia no longer shows up on your test within 8-12 hours of dosing you should have a good amount of bacteria. There after, there's no need to check ammonia any longer. Then just check your trites. Once the trites no longer register, the tank has cycled. After this, continue adding 1ppm ammonia until you plan on adding fish in order to keep the bacteria population going. A day before you plan on adding fish, don't dose any ammonia. On the day you're going to add the fish, test ammonia and trites to make sure they are 0. They should be. Do a good sized water change to get your trates down and add a fish.

 

[scytale]

Aha!
using continual small doses, to simulate a sustained bio-load---now that makes perfect sense, thank you!

 

[DonW]

5 ppm is excessive. Household ammonia is 5-10% ammonium hydroxide and water which drasticly affects ph and denitrifing bacteria. Part of cycling a reef is building denitrifying bacteria the cycle is not over until your nitrates are close to or at 0. Excess ammonia also means excess nitrates feeding all the stuff you dont want to feed like diatoms. Boosting ammonia levels to .5 or just detectable and increasing the tanks temp to 85F+ will accomplish a balanced bacterial growth of both nitrifing and denitrifing.

Don

Don

 

[scytale]

+85 degrees, Then I'll definitely leave the live tonga branch out during the cycle! :eek2:

Would setting up an "ammonia drip" be a good idea, or over-kill?

Thanks for the tips Don, and don't worry, I'm in no hurry to rush this tank (heck, I started this "simple little nano project", in March, and am just NOW cycling. )
And I spent almost 3 years battling 'trates in my main tank, and don't want to go through that again.

85 degrees with just a hint of NH3--sounds like summer, on a farm, when the fertilizer-truck rolls by.

 

[DonW]

80 to 90 is optimal for bacterial growth without the poison. A drip I think is a little overkill. Those cheap seachem ammonia indicators are perfect for ammonia cycling. The alert point is .5 ppm.

Don

 

[gotfish]

If you take a look online, you'll see 5ppm is advised by just about everyone who subscribes to this method.

The guy who started this whole process is an organic chemist. Why he decided to target 5ppm is probably from trial and error, but that's what he says and I know of a lot of people now who use it and it works. Could it be done with .5ppm, maybe, but then how much of a population are you going to make? Remember, the population is only as large as the food source.

As far as the cycle being completed at 0 nitrates thats all fine and dandy, but it's not necessary. Considering trates aren't harmful to fish in lower levels, it's not necessary for there to be 0 trates when adding fish. Besides, with the use of a fuge and water changes, it can be reduced and kept at 0. There is no need to wait for the full cycle to occur.

Is it good to have a full cycle, sure, but most people can't wait the 2 months for it to occur.

 

[DonW]

Reef tanks 0 is a must. There is no reason to start off on the wrong foot. The method is not new by any means and 1 to 2 ppm has been prescribed for the last 10 years that I can remember. .5 is more than enough to feed the innoculant without causing all the issues associated with "speed cycling". In fact just a little LR is all that is truly need no ammonia at all. Optimum temperature and low to ideal ph will produce a well balance bacteria population taking care of both nitrites and nitrates no fuge necessary.

Don

 

[gotfish]

You're right Don, 0 nitrates for a reef tank is ideal. I would assume by you telling him he isn't fully cycled until his trates are at 0 also means you're telling him he should put in coral at that time. Otherwise, the thousands of people on this board cycled their tanks wrong. I can guarantee that most of the people you see with beautiful tanks full of coral and fish on this forum started tossing in fish shortly after their test showing the trites were 0 was conducted. In an ideal world, everyone would fully cycle their tank like I'm sure you do every single time you've ever put up a tank correct? Nitrates under 40ppm will generally not kill a fish and unless he's throwing in coral at the time of a finished cycle, he needn't worry too much about it.

You're also right Don, a fuge isn't needed, then again a protein skimmer isn't either, but many of us still use them.

What it comes down to Scytale, do what you're comfortable with. There is no tried and true method for doing anything in this hobby as I'm sure you know. Heck, if you've got the time, do it both ways and see which works best for you.

 

[DonW]

Quite honestly you don't need to get irritated. The bottom line is there are many ways to get it done. I cycled my tank with all dead rock and sand with mearly 6 hermit crabs. There are also many ways to cause problems that then have to be fixed such as high nitrates. I guess if a guys in a rush to see fish swimming around the rushed cycle is the way to go. I had fish and a couple corals in my tank in two weeks no nitrates and no ammonia no fuge. As far as the thousands that you believe I think are wrong you couldn't be farther from the truth. The ammonia method was rarely used until just recently. It was discredited many years ago and is now making a comeback with the same known issues just new people. You will also find beginners daily that are having nutrient issues. This is caused by good old fashioned excess. Excess ammonia excess nitrites and finally excess nitrates.

Don

 

[scytale]

Thanks guys!

I'll probably shoot for a 1ppm ammonia load (just because that's the easiest concentration for me to discern on the test-kit. )

And like I said--I'm in no rush, yet...
..Which doesn't mean I'll be patient enough to wait until the nitrates drop ALL the way to zero.
(I already have a whole tank full of LPS/SPS that I can frag that I know will do just fine in a tank loaded with 15-20ppm of nitrates. )
But I'll probably wait until the nitrate tests are trending in the right direction.

Heck, if you've got the time, do it both ways and see which works best for you.

Ha! My wife would have me sleeping on the couch if I setup ANOTHER tank this year!