disappearing fish

[reefer gal]

I have a 60 gal. tank now for 6 months. My CBS has disappeared, my firefish
goby has disappeared and a yellowtail blue damsel. No signs of any leftovers. I have a yellow tang that I have never seen bother anything, 3 percula clowns, 1 which has been abused by the other 2 and stays hid out when the lights are on, 1 unicorn tang,and a yellow tail blue damsel that does seem rather aggressive. Also a foxface rabbitfish. Torch coral, leather finger,colt, purple mushroom and a bubble tip coral. Latest addition was a christmas tree
worm rock. Who or what could the culprit be?

 

[balogh03]

Besides that it sounds like you have too large of fish for a 60gal, I would first go to the live rock that you got. From what it sounds like, you have a predator that is eating them. How many pounds of rock do you have and where did it come from..."dead" or "live"?

Also, just to be sure it is not water quality, please post the actually numbers that your tank tests out at.
ex. nitrates: 10+....

Hope we can help you, but mostly WELCOME TO REEFFRONTIERS!!!!!!!

-augustus

 

[reefer gal]

I guess I'm not a true reefer as I do not even know the actual water readings. The only thing I check is the CA++. My LFS guy set my tank up and does the readings. He checks it and always says everything is OK. He had the yellow tang in a tank smaller than mine!
I forgot to mention the 2 long spine urchins I have, along with red legged hermit crabs and some and some snails. I have 50 lbs. of live rock. I have seen something in the tank at night that is black with antenaes and 2 white spots on it's ?head? I tried to get it out of the tank one night with a pair of forceps (was approx.1 inch long) and it just split into.
The part with the 2 white spots survived and I have rarely seen it on one of the rocks. I know I have a bristle worm that I inherited with the worm rock,but understand it is an addition,not a nuisance. My LFS guy can't explain what happened to the fish. I have been reading the forums for a while trying to catch on to the hobby. Thanks for the welcome.

 

[gas4544]

For starters, I suggest finding a new home for the abused clownfish. Life is not fun for him. I would also consider doing the same for the yeloow-tailed blue damsel, unless you are really, really attached to him. Damsels tend to be troublemakers.

This may sound like a stupid question, but is it possible that one or more of your missing fish has jumped outside of the tank and you have not found it? Do you have a cat that may have found it?

How healthy do your remaining fish appear to be?

Gary

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Welcome to Reef Frontiers, a great place to learn and make friends.

The larger Red leg hermits can be carnivores, feeding at night on sleeping fish. The largest clownfish and the damsel could be suspects. Need better description of your black with white dot suspect. Without more tank readings and info, no way to make positive determination of fish loss cause. Could be poor feeding, poor filtration, bad water from too many fish, contaminents, predator, etc. Start to read up on how to keep a reef tank and learn the hobby. Keep having fun...

 

[reefer gal]

I quess I should start testing the water myself. Any suggestions on the best kit. Like I said earlier I just figured mt LFS guy would tell me if my readings was off. Do you think I have to many fish in my tank? The yellow tang is 5 inches long, unicorn is 3 inches, rabbitfish..4 inches, clowns..2 inches and damsel is 1 inch. I do believe the damsel is a demon, he even looks mean ! They are all very healthy looking. Can a damsel or clown kill and eat a CBS ? I read about the hobby freq. as I do not want anything to happen to my
tank. The corals are all doing good, the only trouble I had was with a bubble tip coral that lost some of it's bubbles,but doin alittle better now since I placed it on the sand.If I can catch the damsel, what do I do with him? Give him back to the fish store? I have been reading this forum since I got the tank. By reading, I got rid of green hair algae that was starting to take over and stopped the damsel from nipping at the yellow tang. Thanks for all the help. I was in Wa. just last week...beeeautiful !

 

[g0rFz]

my guess is your shrimp is doing it. im not sure how hard it is for him to hide (rockwork and such) but i know that coral banded shrimps are no good! i have one and he tried to kill a smaller scooter blenny so i had to move him to a different tank with more powerful fishies...

not sure if you have an overflow and sump, but i ALSO have once found a yellow tailed damsel in my overflow...they are so tiny.

i am not sure because i havent seen your tank but i do know CBS's are mean unless they have plenty of food to scavenge for...and as gas said get that clown outta there...that isn't a good environment for a clown by himself against a mater pair.

either your shrimp is hiding really well and eating their carcasses OR they have disappeared in some sort of powerhead/overflow device. definitely test for nitrates and see if there is a spike which can be harmful...

i dont think the damsel is much of a threat i think these are the nicest of all damsels and a firefish is too fast to get killed by a damsel IMO

 

[cr8signs]

Firefish like to jump out. Check the floor behind your tank or under/around the cabinet area.
I have known people to suspect yellow tangs, they seem fine during the day, but dangerous at night. I love yellow tangs, but I did have one in a small tank once. It was housed with a cleaner shrimp that complelelty disappeared. Next, a cleaner wrasse that "completely disappeared: , then after that a psuedo chromis, that "completely disappeared". Not a trace of any parts of any of these victims were ever found. It was a small qt tank, no room to really "disappear", no clean up crew. I'll let you decide what you think happened to them. I have also had unusual crabs come in on live rock that only come out at night and cause trouble. ( Check your tank out with a flash light at midnight sometime, it is amazing what you will find).
Yes, I do think you have too many fish in that tank. Especially given the size of some of them. Also, most people say tangs should never be kept in a tank smaller than 75 gal, and recommend 6' wide for ample swimming room. Of course, you will always get many varied opinions.
Just keep reading all you can, and learning. The more you learn the better you will be able to make informed decisions with your tank. There are many great forums to learn from and no question is ever "a dumb question". Welcome to reef keeping and have fun!

 

[reefer gal]

I have glass on the top of my tank because I do have a cat that I thought might be interested in the contents (however he doesn't even act like it exists) I bought a test kit today so I could keep tract, rather than depending on my LFS guy.

S.G-1.023
phosphate 0.5ppm
ca 440
kh 214.8ppm
nitrate 20ppm

I will be doing a water change tomorrow. Yes..I love the yellow tang,he is so beautiful. What do I do now that the consensus is I have to many fish? I don't have an overflow or a sump so I really feel something has eaten the damsel ,the CBS and the firefish goby. I really loved him too. If I get the nitrate level down and the rest of the fish stay healthy won't I be OK?

 

[g0rFz]

honestly you should consider getting a GOOD skimmer if you are going to heavily stock, and try to get your SG up a tad bit like make your mix 1.026 so itll go up maybe to 1.024 (although this has nothing to do with these disappearances) anyways as long as these guys look healthy...

now if something happens to a tang or foxface that would be kind of scary, meaning you have the meanest toughest fish ever or your water really is bad and you never knew it. just get the clown out and i think you will have balanced it out a lot better. and get a skimmer!

 

[returnofsid]

Since you specifically asked, I'll answer. YES, you have WAY too many fish for your tank. A Yellow Tang needs at least a 75, preferably a 100 gallon tank. Your Unicorn Tang needs at least a 300 gallon tank, by itself. Both tangs, even when very small, are very active swimmers and need lots of room to swim. Your Foxface is another fish that needs a minimum of a 75 gallon tank. So, you've got at least 3 fish that need to be in a larger tank...all together in a small tank. Even in a 75, only one of these fish would be appropriate, no more. In other words, if you had the Yellow Tang AND the Foxface, a 75 would be way too small.
If your LFS knew what he was doing, or cared about more than just making money, they'd have told you this. You definitely need to start doing your own testing, I see from your test results that you've probably purchased an "all in one" test kit. Those aren't very accurate. Get accurate single test kits from Salifert or Elos . Test for:
Ammonia,
Nitrates,
pH,
Calcium,
Alk,
Magnesium,
Phosphates.

I'd be willing to bet your nitrates are off the chart and that you have ammonia levels. Any ammonia levels are toxic to fish.

No, getting just the clown out will not balance things out. You do need to get the clown out...but you need to get a lot more fish out as well. In fact, because the clown is always stressed and hiding, it's probably not eating much and therefore not contributing much to your bioload at this point.

Getting your nitrates down is important, but not as important as making a huge reduction in your bioload. This means getting rid of several fish. I'd rehome both tangs, the single clown and the foxface. Your tank just isn't adequate for fish this size.

 

[8mycash]

believe it or not I got an eel in my tank with out me buying him. I bought tons of live rock when I started my tank and let the tank cycle itself for a month. 400lbs of live rock takes awhile to cycle I talked with a friend of mine from college and he stated that an eel can survive for quite sometime in wet live rock..Anyways I started stocking my tank and could not figure out where my fish where going for months. In a 500 gallon cube there are plent of places to hide. Anyways this went on for almost 2 years, I would go months with no losses and then boom 3 fish dissappear. One night my son called me and asked when I got the eel in the tank, I explained to him that there was no eel in my tank. He sent me a video clip from his cell phone, damn it there is an eel in my tank!!:evil: I had to remove all my live rock, corals and fish to get him out. Of course he was hiding under the last rock. But I think the guys are right who posted earlier, skimmer and relocate the abused fish. poor little guy. p.s. I kept that damn eel, my wife would not let me flush him. He has a 30 gallon all to himself...*******...lol

 

[NaH2O]

Welcome to Reef Frontiers!!!

Since you specifically asked, I'll answer. YES, you have WAY too many fish for your tank. A Yellow Tang needs at least a 75, preferably a 100 gallon tank. Your Unicorn Tang needs at least a 300 gallon tank, by itself. Both tangs, even when very small, are very active swimmers and need lots of room to swim. Your Foxface is another fish that needs a minimum of a 75 gallon tank. So, you've got at least 3 fish that need to be in a larger tank...all together in a small tank. Even in a 75, only one of these fish would be appropriate, no more. In other words, if you had the Yellow Tang AND the Foxface, a 75 would be way too small.
If your LFS knew what he was doing, or cared about more than just making money, they'd have told you this. You definitely need to start doing your own testing, I see from your test results that you've probably purchased an "all in one" test kit. Those aren't very accurate. Get accurate single test kits from Salifert or Elos . Test for:
Ammonia,
Nitrates,
pH,
Calcium,
Alk,
Magnesium,
Phosphates.

I'd be willing to bet your nitrates are off the chart and that you have ammonia levels. Any ammonia levels are toxic to fish.

No, getting just the clown out will not balance things out. You do need to get the clown out...but you need to get a lot more fish out as well. In fact, because the clown is always stressed and hiding, it's probably not eating much and therefore not contributing much to your bioload at this point.

Getting your nitrates down is important, but not as important as making a huge reduction in your bioload. This means getting rid of several fish. I'd rehome both tangs, the single clown and the foxface. Your tank just isn't adequate for fish this size.

I agree with this completely.

Can you give us a run down on the equipment (lights, pumps, etc) you have on this tank? The age of the tank, temperature, and how often you are doing maintenance?

8mycash - Holy smokes a hitchhiking eel! That sucks and is really cool at the same time. Do you know what kind of eel it is?

I'm definately not ruling out a predator at this point, but would like to see what happens to the tank once the livestock list changes. I can't imagine a store recommending those species of fish in a 60 gallon. See if the store will take them back for credit to put towards some new equipment or test kits. Also, don't let the store tell you that fish like the unicorn tang are fine in a 60 gallon and they do it all the time. It doesn't make it right.

Kudos for you for reading up on your tank now. It will only make you a better reefkeeper.

 

[returnofsid]

If the LFS won't take back the 3 larger fish, I might suggest going so far as to confront them with giving you such bad advice. To help your case, you can pick up just about any fish book in their own store and NONE of them will recommend any of those fish go in a 60. It would be something I would hold off on unless they refuse. Sounds like your LFS needs a lot of education themselves....or are just out to make money and don't care about the health of the fish they sell.

 

[cr8signs]

8mycash, cool story! It is always the last rock!

 

[reefer gal]

Ok,now i am really feeling ignorant! The marine center website says minimum tank size for a unicorn tang is 55gal. And you all are so right about the recommended tank size for the foxface and the yellow tang. I did do my research on these fish but like I said my LFS said it would be OK, because they are still small. Now to my equipment,agaain feeling ignorant:
Filter- Emperor 280 biowheel
Sump- don't know, LFS just brought it and set it up
Power head- same thing
Lights- Coral life 65x2
UV sterilizer-15 watt

Yes, I guess I bought an all in one test kit

Most recent readings after 25% water change:
SG-1.022
Phos-0.5ppm
Nitrate-0ppm
Ca-400
KH-214.8

The tank is 7 months old. The only odd things I have seen is that slug looking thing that is
black with some white spots and some little white starfish looking crature that hangs on the glass (about 2mm).If the 3 larger fish seem healthy and happy is it still a problem?

 

[NaH2O]

Although the Marine Center recommends a minimum tank size of 55 gallon does not mean it is right. I'm actually appalled that the Marine Center has that recommendation. The smallest I'd say is at least, at least a 180 gallon. These fish get very large. Even though the fish seem happy and healthy now, they may not remain so. There will be territorial stresses that will continue to grow. As they become larger in size, so will their waste amount, which will degrade your water quality. I'm not a fan of folks buying fish with the intent of getting a bigger system. You never know what will happen in the future, and some of those people may not have the means to upgrade. Now, they are stuck with a fish too large for the fish to thrive....not just survive. I could live in my pantry, but I'd probably go crazy. We are already putting stresses on the fish we keep by putting them in a closed environment. We should be conscientious enough to give them the best care that we can. I don't mean to sound like such a downer, but a 60 gallon just seems so tiny to me for a unicorn tang.

The starfish looking thing, does it move? Or does it look like this: Staurocladia oahuensis

Other than your phosphates (which could be test kit error), your calcium is fine. Are you adding/supplementing with anything? Your alkalinity (12 dKH), seems high for it to just come from a salt mix.

 

[reefer gal]

I'm back..been to the BVI's on a sailing trip...awesome! I think I have id'ed my hitch hikers 1) asterina,I noe have 3 that I have seen 2) the black thing with white spots I believe is an elephant slug. I feel that I am a very conscientious person. These fish have been shipped in a bag from who knows where and put in a tank smaller than mine. I feel like I have saved them. They are fed on a regular basis, living in ideal water and no enemies! I love these guys! My LFS guy said he will take them back and if they live for 2 weeks, he will give me half my money back. Nothing else has disappeared.