Does anyone add vinegar to their Kalk

[Curtswearing]

There are two articles in the library regarding this.

Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things.

First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.

Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.

Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).

Adding Vinegar in Kalkwasser is one of the few win-win situations for reefers -- it has a great up side and I've yet to encounter a down side to doing it. I don't know why so few reefers do it -- lack of understanding of the chemistry behind it maybe -- but a lot more are starting now that some respected reef writers have discovered it and have recommended it and even written up detailed instructions for it.

By the way, you should check your pH before and after you do this the first few times to make sure it is not affected by the process. It should not be a problem. Also, if you don't already have them, get and learn to use Salifert test kits for Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. The levels of all of these are related and affected by dripping Kalk.

Kalkwasser in Depth (vinegar)
AND

There is no reason to use anything other than white vinegar (made for human consumption) for this purpose. You can buy pure acetic acid from chemical supply stores, but a source of “Food Chemical Codex” (FCC) grade acetic acid is as close as your local grocery store. I doubt your corals want cider, balsamic or herb-flavored vinegars either. Just plain old white vinegar should do very nicely and is what I’ve been using.

Even starting at one quarter the maximum dosage, which I’m suggesting you try first, the concentration of calcium in this spiked limewater will be about 9 percent higher than in unspiked limewater. The pH of all of these mixtures will also be somewhat lower than a pure solution of calcium hydroxide in water. And you really should make saturated solutions when you do this, and perhaps check the pH of the solution as well, to make sure it isn’t very low.

Expanding the Limits of Limewater: Vinegar

Has anyone tried this? What would you say the biggest benefit or detriment was?

 

[DonW]

Curt,
I used to do this and the only thing I saw was a cleaner kalk bucket. I guess thats a good thing, but I really didnt need the extra calcium just the ph rise.

Don

 

[NaH2O]

Hooked/Katrina and I were just discussing this. She used vinegar to mix up the kalk, and has since noticed a drop in her pH. I am unsure as to what the pH is of the solution in her nilsen reactor.

 

[esmith]

I've been using it when I do my kalk mixup, and noticed that it did drop the PH a little; this was a good thing because it allowed me to drip it at a faster rate without having to worry so much about driving the PH through the roof.

Eliyah

 

[Curtswearing]

I've read anecdotally that Magnesium stays higher when using vinegar but cannot figure out why chemically.

However, I've also read where sand clumping is increased a little. Not a brick like we've seen before, but just small amounts. I suspect that this is from the additional bacteria that grow with the addition of a Carbon source.

The final, and most perplexing, outcome of the great vinegar experiment has been that Rich and several other aquarists have reported some clumping in the upper layers of sand when they have added acetic acid to limewater. I didn’t see that in my system, but this may be primarily because my corals and fish are currently living in a 150-gallon Rubbermaid tub. I can only observe them from the top, so I’m quite simply not in a position to make good observations about what is happening in the sand layer in my system.

There are several possible underlying mechanisms for the clumping people observe, and they are not mutually exclusive. My suspicion is that a combination of the following is happening.

1) By allowing the aquarist to increase the total calcium and alkalinity added to the aquarium, the calcium carbonate saturation state of the aquarium is increased. The poise of the entire system to form calcium carbonate is increased and any methodology that increases saturation state can contribute to sand clumping and cementing.

2) The main consumers of the acetate added to the aquarium are most likely bacteria. The largest biomass of heterotrophic bacteria in a reef aquarium lives within the sand bed. The main metabolic products of acetate consumption should be carbon dioxide and bicarbonate ions. Bicarbonate is released into interstitial water. At the interface between the alkalinity-rich water within the sand bed and the high pH water in the aquarium, the calcium carbonate saturation index might go very high, and calcium carbonate might cement together sand grains.

However, Rich indicated that clumping in his sand was not solid cement-like blocks. The clumps were soft and easily disintegrated.

3) Bacteria secrete matrix substances that act like organic glues. Increasing the mass of bacteria in the sand by giving them a new food source might result in the production of more of these glue-like substances.

Limewater, Acetic Acid and Sand Clumping

 

[mojoreef]

Is the small amount of extra calcium realized worth the addition of this??

Mike

 

[Curtswearing]

Is the small amount of extra calcium realized worth the addition of this??

I doubt it. I don't like the addition of Carbon too much. I just thought it was worth discussing.

 

[randythereefer]

I mix 1 tblsp of kalk to 5 tblsp's of vinegar and dose it into my skimmer every night. I helps to lower the PH of the kalk and for me has kept my calcium and alkaliinity at optimal levels. For me its cheaper than a calcium reactor.

 

[mojoreef]

Yea Randy I can certainly understand that, reducing the ph of kalk if its your only source is definately a strong point. Have anyone who is doing this for a while now noticed any changes in any other parameters??


Mike

 

[cwcross]

I have done this whenver I drip Kalk for about 5 months now. I don't notice any ill effects. My aragonite is pretty course though so it doesn't clump that much. Here are some things I know.

Ammonium acetate salts are quite volatile. I would imagine that some proportion of the acetate is lost to evaporation.

I'm sure the rest is consumed in fairly rapid order. I only drip Kalk about once per week so I don't see it as a problem in my tank. If I added it continuously, I might start to reconsider.

Many in Germany have been adding vodka to their tanks to feed bacteria and decrease nitrates. Adding acetate is basically the same thing but probably better than vodka.

I like the fact that I can get more Kalk into solution per gallon and the offsetting pH effect is a benefit to prevent such a pH spike from adding it more quickly.

Anyway, I doubt it makes a big difference in my case since I don't add continuously.

Sincerely...Collin

 

[mojoreef]

Its the bacterial build up that I was wondering about Collin, just wondering if thier was a side effect from that.

Mike

 

[cwcross]

Well, it is food. I'm sure it will contribute to bacterial buildup. Probably not good from that perspective. I think I will stop using it for this reason. Probably not good for long term in terms of what the reward is, a minor increase in delivered Kalk/gallon.

Collin

 

[MikeS]

I began experimenting with vinager boosted kalk about 7 months ago...but I have discontinued doing it.

I saw no substantial increase in my Ca levels, only slight. My pH stayed a little lower, which was good I guess, because it usually hovered around 8.4-8.5.

On the negative side, I saw in INCREASE in the amount of clacium carbonate buildup in the tank. I had in increase in microalge populations. I noted that it also caused the activated carbon I use from time to time to "cement" together. And I had a more difficult time maintaining a good Ca/Alk balance.

I quit using the vinager about 3 weeks ago...the calcium carbonate is no longer building up like it did, the microalgae are on their way out and I'm getting a better Ca/Alk balance than before...

MikeS

 

[randythereefer]

I have noticed that my clams seem happier and I'm able to keep a 1.5" long maxima clam. Clams that young usually don't survive without some serious supplementation. I'm going to assume that the "food" produced with the vingar kalk mix is helping him along. I fed DT's for about first month I had him though so it could just be pure coincidence. Because of my SPS i have some serious calcium needs. I have a Kalk reactor plus dose the vinegar kalk mixture every night. I've been doing this for well over a year since the kalk water topoff itself didn't supplement enough. I tried a teaspoon a night to 5 teaspoons of vingar but that didn't keep the levels up either. For me the one tablespoon kalk to 5 tablespoons vinegar works well. I do however get calcium buildup especially around the impellars of my mag drives.