Dsb

[trillyen]

ok I was watching a how to video and I discoverd that alot of expierenced hobbiest use different substrates. Such as having a real course substrates like crushed coral on bottom and having a much more fine substrate like aragonite sand on top.

Ive also herd that if the DSB is disturbed like in the tank it can release some kind of poison to the fish.

I just found this out today and my DSBs in my refuges are all at least 3 and a half to 4 inches deep and all real fine aragonite sand.

I'm thinking that it will help control nitrate and it more than likely won't be disturbed by anything since nothing will be in the refuge.

I should be ok, and I know a DSB isnt essential ive just always wanted 1, the sand in my tank is about 1 in to a inch and a half deep.

Thanks guys and gals

 

[Krish]

I just found this out today and my DSBs in my refuges are all at least 3 and a half to 4 inches deep and all real fine aragonite sand.

If I remember correctly (could be wrong) but I think you need to go a bit deeper than 4 inches for it to be considered a dsb. Maybe someone else will chime in though.

 

[returnofsid]

You're absolutely correct in having a DSB in your fuge...but I agree that 4" isn't deep enough. I'd add more if possible. If you have the room, shoot for 6-8" IMO.

 

[MikeS]

Depth is kind of relative when talking about a DSB. Other factors will play into how much nitrate processing you will see, such as water flow above the sand bed, particle size, ect. As long as you have an adequate anoxic/anerobic zone (which will be present in just about any substrate to some degree reguardless of depth) you will get some of the desired results.

As for toxin release from a disturbed DSB, again this depends on a lot of factors. How much of the DSB that was disturbed, how much crud and byproducts are accumulated in it, ect, ect...Unless you have an older DSB and a very high bioload on it, you are usually pretty safe. I moved my tank several times with the same DSB in it and never saw a massive release of crud, but I had a pretty low bioload on it.

MikeS

 

[trillyen]

wow and I was worried I had to much LOL

Yeah I got more sand I can add if need b. If mike thinks I should add more than I will cause I got sand to spare trust me I might as well get use of it, but if it really aint necessary than I may just add it to any up and coming tank projects. But I did want a little deeper sand bed, but I really dont have any particular goal I'm trying to achieve just like the look and ive herd good things, and I'm sure it'll help out alot in my reef tank but it'll also be benifical in my fowlr tank also.

I think I will go deeper, but I would like to know if it really matters or not and at what depth is the offical "DSB" achived?

Thanks all

 

[trillyen]

Ok turns out I had just enough sand to do a 6 in dsb in my reef tank and about a 5 and 1/25 in sand bed in my fowlr tank

will that be ok???

 

[Scooterman]

Ok turns out I had just enough sand to do a 6 in dsb in my reef tank and about a 5 and 1/25 in sand bed in my fowlr tank

will that be ok???

Sounds Good! I'd consider getting few sand sifters, gobys etc. To help turn over the sand bed!

 

[MikeS]

Ok turns out I had just enough sand to do a 6 in dsb in my reef tank and about a 5 and 1/25 in sand bed in my fowlr tank

will that be ok???

Both of those should be plenty deep.

A few hints on getting the most out of your DSB...contrary to popular belief, the DSB was never intended to deal with a large bioload in the tank, and nor does it mimic any process that significantly contributes to the water quality of the wild reef in nature. Keeping these facts in mind, IMO you should apporch DSB tank maintenance accordingly. A DSB tank should have a lower bioload, and should be maintained in much the same way a bare bottom tank would be. Good flow, agressive skimming, mechanical, and chemical filtration will all help reduce the load on the DSB, thus extending its effective life span. A DSB that is overwhelmed with waste and nutrients will accumulate toxins and byproducts more quickly, and also slow on outgassing nitrogen. Instead, it will begin convering nitrate and ammonia into ammonium, effectively recycling the nutrients right back into the system.

 

[trillyen]

hey thanks alot guys for all the help

At first when you said I should have alot of flow in my refuge I was like huh, and I didnt think I had alot but ive looked and water seems to be dumping in that chamber in and out pretty quick so I should be good

Mike your last post was really detailed but It was kinda over my head and I didnt understand some of the words LOL

I'm gonna have to read over yourvdirectioms a bit more close cause it really seems that u and the guys are on top of the dsb thing

Thanks guys

 

[MikeS]

Mike your last post was really detailed but It was kinda over my head and I didnt understand some of the words LOL

Well, in a nutshell, you'll get better results, lower risk of toxin buildup and a longer life out of your DSB if you keep the bioload low and remove as many of the water pollutants and solid waste as you can by skimming, carbon, mechanical filtration, ect, before it has a chance to accumulate in the DSB.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

After 30 years, I am finally heading away from sand. My new softy tank is BB and as soon as I win the war going on in my sps display, will become BB too. A dsb has risks not found with a BB and is one more thing to maintain. Read up more for why, too busy to explain today

 

[MikeS]

After 30 years, I am finally heading away from sand. My new softy tank is BB and as soon as I win the war going on in my sps display, will become BB too. A dsb has risks not found with a BB and is one more thing to maintain. Read up more for why, too busy to explain today

Ahh yes, they do have "risks" not associated with BB setups, but BB setups have drawbacks as well. Not to sure I'd go as far as calling them risks really, as a properly maintained DSB really isn't that risky, it just has some quirks that the reefkeeper needs to be aware of... I've done both, DSB for 5 years, BB for 2.5 years now...as for a DSB being "one more thing to maintain...well, a BB tank tends to be more overall maintenance than a DSB tank, and tends to rely more heavily on religious maintenance. Having said that, I would still state that the closer a DSB tank is maintained to a BB tank, the better chance of success one will have, so it makes the issue of maintenance somewhat of a moot one anyway IMO. If a person wants a sand substrate for astethic purposes, that's just fine, but I agree that the reefkeeper needs to get a decent understanding of how a DSB functions, a realization of some of its drawbacks, and a willingness to do the necessary things required to give the DSB the best chance of functioning properly....

 

[Scooterman]

Now that I've kept both a good while each, I think BB has a about the same amount of issues compared to DSB's & Ironically almost the same types if issues but in reverse sequences of occurrences.

(LOL clear right?)

 

[MikeS]

Now that I've kept both a good while each, I think BB has a about the same amount of issues compared to DSB's & Ironically almost the same types if issues but in reverse sequences of occurrences.

(LOL clear right?)

I agree. The big difference I've noticed between the two is the speed at which things occur in the tank. In a BB tank, there is an immediate negative reaction to excess nutrients, typically manifested in an algae bloom of sorts. But these reactions are also very quick to disappear once the nutrients have been removed. DSB's on the other hand, provide more of a biological buffer so to speak, problems don't appear as quickly and develop generally more slowly, but they also tend to take a lot longer to resolve.

Reguardless of which setup you go with, maintenance is still the key to sucess, you definately can't avoid it with either setup...

 

[trillyen]

Ok now you guys got me wondering... I was under the impression that a dsb would require me to do less maintance to the tank than my prior expierence with the salt water world

im not sure how im gonna stock my reef tank yet but i do plan on having a pretty heavy stock in my 125 gallon, which i would really like to keep the stock to my self cause im sure it would cause an uproar in response to this post.

i do how ever plan on putting a very light clean up crew in the refuge on the dsb, like those snails that dig there self under the sand(would those be ok) and then a pretty large clean up crew in the 125 gl tank its self

i have a berlin xl turbo skimmer rated from 150 to 400 gallons with a pretty powerfull red sea pump on it, backed up on the other side directly in the live rock/refuge dsb chamber a 65 gallon odyssea skimmer rated for about a 55 to 65 gl tank

ive got a 24 watt uv sterilizer, 2 drilled and connected 29 gallon tanks 1 with the refuge and one with a majority of the equipment like the berlin skimmer and the uv, and 1 of my heaters

ive got sponges on each end of every baffle that the water has to travel through before going to the next chamber

and each sump/refuge has its own overflow box that feeds it with water, and the water also has to travel through a sponge before it goes down the drain of the over flow into the lr chamber

i would think for at least 2 to 3 weeks at a time my tank would need only light maintance

i also use ro/di water at 0 ppm soon to be like -1000 ppm due to a add on im about to make

i know there is no such thing as -1000 ppm but ill be pushing it though with my add ons to my ro/di unit!!!

 

[Herefishyfishy]

i do how ever plan on putting a very light clean up crew in the refuge on the dsb

GOOD PLACE FOR DSP

i have a berlin xl turbo skimmer rated from 150 to 400 gallons with a pretty powerfull red sea pump on it

TOTAL CRAP, NOT WORTH THE ELECTRICITY TO RUN IT

ive got a 24 watt uv sterilizer
CAN'T HURT, MIGHT HELP

ive got sponges on each end of every baffle that the water has to travel through before going to the next chamber

THESE CONVERT EVERYTHING TO NITRATES

i would think for at least 2 to 3 weeks at a time my tank would need only light maintance

i also use ro/di water at 0 ppm soon to be like -1000 ppm due to a add on im about to make

EXCELLENT!

Get a better skimmer and toss the sponges or save them for the QT

 

[MikeS]

well, with a large bioload, an SSB would be a better option than a DSB, in my opinion. Too large of a bioload will quickly overwhelm the DSB and make it more problematic. An SSB will still require pretty regular maintenance however, especially with a large bioload.

Reguardless of the setup, DSB, SSB or BB, there is one constant...Larger bioload = More maintenance.

 

[trillyen]

a better skimmer than the berlin???? they said it was the top of the line for the money???

by ssb im assuming you mean shallow sand bed???

ok here is the question thats been in the dark, how many fish can i have in the 125 gl and the 75 gallon each to be a light bio load

i jknow for my stock list on the 125 gl i at least want 8 or 9 fish at the most

and for the 75 ill probably have around the same amount plus corals

i may have 1 anemone in the 125 gallon also

but 1 hell of a clean up crew in each tank

 

[Herefishyfishy]

a better skimmer than the berlin???? they said it was the top of the line for the money???

Whoever said that, lied. It is total crap

by ssb im assuming you mean shallow sand bed???

Yes, SSB is shallow sand bed

ok here is the question thats been in the dark, how many fish can i have in the 125 gl and the 75 gallon each to be a light bio load

i jknow for my stock list on the 125 gl i at least want 8 or 9 fish at the most

and for the 75 ill probably have around the same amount plus corals

i may have 1 anemone in the 125 gallon also

but 1 hell of a clean up crew in each tank

No set formula, but make sure that if a lot of fish are planned, that they are not ones that get big. The more fish, the more maintanence and the more frequent water changes required.

 

[MikeS]

There isn't really a specific number of fish you can or can't have in a certain size tank, as there are tons of varibles that play into what the overall bioload is, and how it is dealt with in the tank. Certain fish are going to have more of an impact on bioload than others because of their size and diet...ie predators like lionfish tend to have more of an impact than herbivores or scavengers, because more food has to be introduced initially into the system to sustain them. Many herbivores can get a portion of their nutrition from algaes in the tank which grow in response to unused nutrients already in the system, and scavengers can live off the scraps of the initial food introduction, so neither requires quite as much food introduced up front.

Cleanup crews don't really tend to count towards your bioload unless their numbers are so large or disproportionate that additional food is needed to be added to the tank to sustain them. However, be aware that even under ideal situations, the total amount of bioreduction you will see from a cleanup crew (ie nutrients burned as energy and not put back into the system as waste) is probably only about 15% of the total nutrient load in the tank.

In addtion, how you are dealing with the excess nutrients impacts how much bioload you can put in a given tank. If you are agressively skimming, running carbon, and doing frequent water changes, you can get away with a larger bioload before it becomes problematic.

The whole thing is actually quite complex, and requires a bit of dialing in on the part of the aquarist. Go slow, add bioload slow, watch the tank, and compensate when necessary....