Flow design for my 240

[Therapy1]

I have been perusing articles about plumbing. As usual, all is too old to give enough info. Pictures no longer available, links no longer active, and no NEW thoughts whether it is right or wrong.

My dilemma. I now want to incorporate a closed loop system to my tank build. What are the latest thoughts? Spray bars? Eductors? Surge making devices?

Any help would be appreciated. Tank will be 26 high by 30 deep by 72 long. Mostly SPS with a few LPS and the typical shroom on bottom. Thx in advance.

Tom

 

[mfinn]

On my closed loop on 233, I had OBD do four 1" return holes and one 1-1/2" suction hole in the back wall.

 

[mfinn]

Here is the backside after plumbing it.

 

[Therapy1]

Thank you. Actually, it was your tank thread that got me interested in this thought. I have your pix downloaded already.

I do have concerns about the input from the tank collecting unwanted inhabitants from the tank. What type of strainer do you use?

 

[Therapy1]

OK, I see it in your tank thread post #121.

 

[mfinn]

OK, I see it in your tank thread post #121.

Picture is kind of dark, but it's just a black 1-1/2" pvc tee coming out of the bulkhead with a strainer on each side of the tee.
Everything is slip fit and not glued.

 

[Therapy1]

Further study has led me to this thought.

10x flow to the sump is irrelevant. IMO. The real issue is flow within the reef tank. What is important is to keep the flow to the sump above what the skimmer flows. Example with arbitrary numbers. 100 gallon tank calls for 1000 gal per hour turnover. But if your skimmer (or whatever sump appliance) only turns 500 GPH then the extra isn't needed whatsoever. PROVIDED that you have a closed loop or powerheads providing the needed water flow for "turnover".

Certainly the extra sump volume adds to the tank specs favorably, but the return pump GPH is less than whats been stated as the needed turnover.

Opinions?

Tom

 

[spieszak]

I don't even care about that skimmer part honestly. Water tends to be an equalizer.
If you have a cup of water colored yellow with food coloring, and a cup of water colored blue with food coloring and you mix them together the water turns green, it doesn't stack up, it just turns green.
Your skimmer is constantly diluting the pollutants in the sump, your tank constantly adding them. Its the same as that argument (IMO) about whether you should drain all your water change water at once, or if you can add while you drain. Just turns into a theory on diminishing returns at some point. Water finds its level.

 

[Therapy1]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here Stacey.

IMO, if your skimmer is turning 500 gph then would make no difference if it was returned to the tank at 500gph or 1000gph. The applied filtration is already as good as it will get. Assuming no other filtration devices at work in the sump. At 1000gph the water would not get any "cleaner" than it would at 500. The untreated water would just be on a ride through the sump. It can't dilute the water and make it any cleaner because it is exported to the tank and new untreated water is entering the sump from the tank. So then it is all up the the Skimmer to clean as well as it can and turn water over as quickly as you can.

Just a thought. I must be missing something here.

 

[spieszak]

I'm saying your skimmer cleans as good as it cleans, regardless the amount of water it says it pumps through.
Water finds a level. The skimmer can process X amount of water, but for each X amount of water, ALL the water becomes less 'dirty' Your skimmer may touch 500 gph, but it certainly doesn't take 500gph from X amount of DOC to 0 DOC. It takes it from MORE DOC to LESS DOC , and in the process, that lessens the total DOC of ALL the water, not just the water it touched.
So I can see how it seems reasonable to not put more flow through your sump than your skimmer can turn, but I personally don't think it matters in the slightest whether the numbers match or exceed. I think it matters you have a good skimmer, and that from there the water will find its level. Even distribution of dissolved organics throughout as water seems to prefer even saturation.

 

[Therapy1]

Well, that what I was saying. Match or obviously slightly exceed. But no reason to exceed greatly. Doesn't matter.

BTW, those were arbitrary numbers for sake of discussion.

Thank you for your reply. Anyone else have a thought on this? Agree or disagree?

My thinking is with an added closed loop system the 10x figure for tank to sump turnover is greatly out of whack. All depends on your skimmer. We all know an added refugium likes slower water too.

 

[halmus]

I have only skimmed the other responses here, but they all seem to say the same thing and I agree.

I prefer to go with plenty of water movement inside the tank and not worry as much about GPH in the sump. I also prefer something like an MP-40 for water movement as opposed to closed loop because I don't like extra holes in the display. That's totally a personal preference (not trying to start a debate). But, quality water movement inside the tank might be cheeper to accomplish with closed loop as opposed to Vortechs or Tunz and its possibly less of an eyesore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[spieszak]

I guess all I was really getting at was that I don't care what the turnover rate of the skimmer is either. A "good" skimmer is more important than any of the other numbers IMO, and tank flow shouldn't be a factor of anything other than good water movement as required by what is kept. 10x turnover is a fallback to when power heads or closed loops were overly expensive and unsightly, and were trying to provide as much flow to the tank as possible through the what was required, with as few additions as possible.

 

[mfinn]

My thoughts on flow is to keep it in the tank. Make those softies, and lps move!!!!
They really can take more flow than many realize.

I like the 3x-5x tank volume through the sump guideline.

I also like the slower flow through the sump for a few reasons. A big reason is noise. Less water noise is important. Now that I have a totally silent return pump it's not on the list anymore.
Less chance of micro bubbles back to the tank.
I never really checked numbers on skimmer intake vs water flow in the sump. I've always gone for the biggest skimmer I can afford and fit in my sump.


On my latest tank, the flow is created mostly from a closed loop, which I really like as it is pretty much hidden.

In my refugium, while the general flow through it is slow, I found that the macro likes flow, a lot of it. So I added a Tunze powerhead to the refugium area.

 

[Therapy1]

Thank you all your responses.

My current design is ghost overflow to the basement sump.
Closed loop with 2 Vortech L pumps with Aqualink. 2 in and 2 out to closed loop on opposite site to great alternating movement.

For the sump, I guess I have to finish upgrading my DIY skimmer to finalize the flow requirements. I am increasing the height of the reaction chamber and the downtube plus a bubble plate to get rid of the excess turbulence and increase efficiency.

Picture here as it sits now with the new reaction tube next to it. (Some internal hardware already removed)

 

[Pepcrylic]

I run a CL on my 310 cube-ish sized tank. It is powered by a Hammerhead that runs thru an OceansMotions. You can not see a powerhead or outlet pipe in my tank. I also rum 2, 1'' SeaSwirls off a Dart hybrid pump. The tank is 30'' tall and not a dead spot in it.
Turn over rate in your tank compared to your skimmer GPH is a non issue many do it one way and the other many do it the other way, and both produce amazing tanks.
Your skimmer looks great. As for the bubble plate???? Turbulence in a skimmer is not a bad thing. You want to keep the bubbles in the reaction chamber as long as you can. It is all about contact time. Big Companies added them (bubble plates) as the "New and Improved" gimic. If any thing I would place the bubble plate below the injection level to keep the bubbles from escaping .

 

[Therapy1]

Thx for your reply.
Yea, I removed some of the piping I had inside the skimmer but mocked it back up for a B4 picture. The injector pipe used to go into PVC which routed to the reaction chamber in a swirl type setup. I ran a Mag Drive 18 for it. It created too much turbulence and not enough bubbles creating very wet skimmate. I am switching to an Iwaki 55RLT pressure pump for the beckett head to work more efficiently and increasing the reaction tube to 36 inches from the 16 pictured. Using the bubble plate with a 4 inch short tube in the bottom box to just above the top of box. So directing it into chamber and letting the turbulence calm a little. Also acting as a baffle to keep the outflow bubble free.

Do you think it will fit under my stand? LMAO...kidding. :biggrin:

 

[Pepcrylic]

Thx for your reply.
Yea, I removed some of the piping I had inside the skimmer but mocked it back up for a B4 picture. The injector pipe used to go into PVC which routed to the reaction chamber in a swirl type setup. I ran a Mag Drive 18 for it. It created too much turbulence and not enough bubbles creating very wet skimmate. I am switching to an Iwaki 55RLT pressure pump for the beckett head to work more efficiently and increasing the reaction tube to 36 inches from the 16 pictured. Using the bubble plate with a 4 inch short tube in the bottom box to just above the top of box. So directing it into chamber and letting the turbulence calm a little. Also acting as a baffle to keep the outflow bubble free.

Do you think it will fit under my stand? LMAO...kidding. :biggrin:

Sounds like you have done your homework on the skimmer department. LOL
I just got done researching skimmers myself. I ended up with a 60'' venturi with a Blue Line 100 HD pump. What a monster.Doesnt matter if it fits under your stand. My last skimmer had the stand built around it. literately.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45884&d=1442201855


well that didnt work
Check out 310 Tonga in the 300gal plus thread

 

[Therapy1]

Thank you Pepcrylic. Yes I am somewhat obsessed with skimmer design. I actually plan on this in the basement sump with the 240 tank upstairs. Height means nothing, that's why finished height will be near 5 foot.

Very nice tank setup you have there. Keep me informed of your tanks life. Will look for it.