Garlic - Magic or Fool's Gold?

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leebca

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Let's Talk Garlic!​


Claims of garlic have been around almost as long as garlic has. My ancestor, during the Bubonic Plague in Europe, claimed he didn't get the plague because he ate two handfuls of garlic cloves each day. My relatives said he didn't get the Plague because no one (no rat, human, nor flea) could/would get close enough to him to give it to him because he stunk so much! :eek:

I began studying the effects of garlic during the early 1970's from grants provided by the aquaculture industry. I have seen garlic juice do the following:
Sometimes create a kind of frenzy (agitation) in the fishes
Work as a weak antimicrobial agent, and
Guaranteed to keep vampires away.

Beyond the above, I have not been able to show it to increase a fish's appetite nor create an appetite where none existed. I have tried fresh garlic juice (has to be fresh to be of true value) on foods that fish have refused to eat, and which they still refuse to eat it with the garlic juice on it.

Some marine aquarists swear their fish eat more when garlic is added, but what I find is that the fish are in the 'being agitated category' than having an actual increase in appetite. Studies have found the same to be true (see Steven Pro's article referenced below).

I have tested garlic juice in fish. The fish has to get it into their system to provide some of its antimicrobial value. Eating the garlic doesn't do the fish that much good because the stomach acids break it down and destroys the garlic juice proteins. But if the fish absorbs some in its mouth before it swallows it, it can provide a weak antimicrobial effect.

But the above information has been exaggerated by hobbyists who really want to find a miracle cure. You see, I wrote 'antimicrobial.' It isn't an antibiotic (so it doesn't kill bacteria outright in that sense). It isn't able to give the fish a defense against parasites (Marine Ich, Marine Velvet, Flukes, etc.) nor prevent their infection.

Garlic juice has some topical benefits. Because it is antimicrobial in nature, it can and does slow down/retard secondary, bacterial infections. But I have still found that it will not protect a seriously stressed fish (see: Fish Stress – General).

Still, there are much more important additives to consider before garlic juice. If the marine aquarist is sure it works, then are they not doing the things that work better. What works better? Medications; vitamins; fats; and immune boosters. (See: Immune Boosters). These things are known to work much better than garlic.

Applying garlic to a human situation, it would be like giving grandma lots of garlic instead of taking her to the hospital when she exhibits pneumonia symptoms.

And the most misunderstood part of garlic juice is its affect on fish immunity. It has none as far as we know. Garlic juice does not improve a fish's immunity. There has been no studies to show that the antibody titer increases with the use of garlic juice. Maybe some day someone will show it does or doesn't, but for now, it is not proven and it is something that the marine aquarist cannot 'see' happening in their fishes.

I make my own, since the shelf life of the good components of garlic juice is about 2 days. The garlic juice bought at your LFS may have vitamins mixed in that do help fish immunity and disease resistance, but the garlic juice active ingredients is seriously diminished or even gone and thus useless in any of the functions noted above. If anyone is interested, I'll post how to make your own garlic juice in this thread. Home made garlic juice is the best garlic juice.

It's interesting to note that the work with garlic juice has shown some affects with its ability to provide some antimicrobial effects, but you know how it was administered for its best results? By injection. It's like I wrote above, you have to get it into the fish without going through their stomach. How many of us will be injecting our fish with garlic juice?

Lastly, garlic juice does not cure any of the diseases some hobbyists have reported it does. These are anecdotal instances. There is no scientific evidence that garlic cures nor prevents any marine fish disease. It can and does give problems to some microbes, in a weak way, when it is fresh and highly potent.

On the other hand, there are some suggestions that too much garlic juice can be harmful. No studies on its limitations have been performed. This is only speculation made on some studies.

But. . .He makes his own? I do use it on new fishes in an attempt to get them to eat and reduce the microbe content of my quarantine tank. It is useless to try and do this in my display tank (too much water treatment that removes/destroys the proteins in the juice, like chemical filtration and skimming). With regards to getting fish to eat, I have yet to see it work in about 350+ cases. With regards to it being antimicrobial, I have no doubt.

Steven Pro''s article on the garlic myth: Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

So if this is so true, why are there so many products on the shelf advertising that it contains garlic juice? Because that is what the marine aquarists want to buy. Would you sell snake oil if the demand was there?

Before you suggest how garlic has helped you, you should be aware of the studies done on garlic, why I wrote above it has to be fresh to be of any value, and what is known about it. This is a fairly good article that brings a lot of the information together:
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html

When you have read the above article AND reviewed some of those referenced technical papers (as I have) you may come to realize what garlic does and doesn't do.
:)
 
Looks like I'm making garlic bread tonight. Sorry Fishes, no more for you!

Great article, Lee. I've only used it when trying to get fish to eat or to eat something different. As of now, I was trying to get my Anthias to eat F1 pellet by introducing it into the only thing they eat otherwise - FW Mysis and Brine.

However, this brings me to my next question, which might be a bit off topic; since I most likely won't use garlic anymore or as much, is there any other ways to entice picky eaters (such as anthias) to eat other varieties of food? Everything else they spit out.

Since you mentioned it, and just for sake of keeping this thread somewhat on topic, how do you make GJ (garlic juice)?
 
Snowboarda42's question is based on Lee's comment.

"I make my own, since the shelf life of the good components of garlic juice is about 2 days. The garlic juice bought at your LFS may have vitamins mixed in that do help fish immunity and disease resistance, but the garlic juice active ingredients is seriously diminished or even gone and thus useless in any of the functions noted above. If anyone is interested, I'll post how to make your own garlic juice in this thread. Home made garlic juice is the best garlic juice."
 
The process begins with fresh garlic cloves. Don’t use garlic that has been treated with chemicals, pesticides, etc. Don’t let the juice come in contact with anything that may have residual soap or chemicals left on it, like from a dishwasher or rinse products. Use it immediately. If garlic juice addition is limited to the food that will absorb it, and not adding it to the water, there is little chance of an allicin over-dose.

Some people have had success with a garlic press to juice it. Others have used a blender and handkerchief (this is the way I make it). Soak and rinse the handkerchief in distilled water. Put the blender rendition into the damp handkerchief and squeeze the liquid through the handkerchief.

You want to add just the garlic juice, not whole pieces of garlic. The fish will eat solid garlic, but that isn’t your goal. You want the juice because that is what gets absorbed into their bodies (in their mouth and throat) before their stomach juices attack and denature the allicin.

Garlic juices in the fish stores have the advantage of containing vitamins that might help the fish build up an immunity. The garlic juice in the fish stores have the disadvantage of having low active levels of allicin. It is too unstable to exist on a fish store’s shelf for much time. Garlic paste and minced garlic in the grocery store also suffers from a reduction in potency because it has sat around and allowed the allicin to break down.

Garlic does not always have the same effect in different aquariums, so forgive those who have had little or no success with it.
 
Readers may be interested in some of the 'behind-the-scenes' of garlic.

The plant itself is a pretty tough plant. Still there are insects that can chew into the garlic cloves. What happens is the 'chewing' effect breaks down the garlic fiber and releases the chemicals that make allicin. Allicin just isn't sitting there in the clove -- it is manufactured when the clove is crushed or broken.

The release of allicin (along with many other chemicals as yet not totally evaluated) is what keeps the plant safe from rotting from microbial attack. Other ingredients made by the chewing process also repel the attacker insect. It is really a very interesting self-defense mechanism that only responds to a specific stimulant -- breaking down the fibers.

Looking at the event from the 'plant's perspective,' the manufacture of allicin is an on-demand response to being attacked. The 'more attacked,' the more allicin is produced. If the attack stops, the allicin manufacturing stops.

That is why the gloves crushed or blended is the first step. This is what starts the chemical reaction to make the allicin (and other chemicals) that are somewhat useful as an antimicrobial agent.

Unfortunately, allicin is not stable. It's got about 2 days at best, when refrigerated. This is the garlic's anti-microbial benefit. The garlic juice will still agitate and send fishes into a frenzy, but I think it is rather interesting that people buying garlic preparations off the LFS's shelf swear how it 'cures' the fish. The allicin (and most of those other chemicals) just aren't there in a high enough nor active enough concentration, to do any cure. This then comes full circle to interpreting what you see and connecting the wrong dots. The weakness is a great amount of anecdotal information, that can't be verified when repeated.

On the other hand, fresh garlic juice has its full anti-microbial potential (albeit weak, remember).

 
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well i havent used garlic for awhile but when i added a sailfin tang 2 years ago he had white spot for a a couple of days and then i gave him garlic soaked food and he improved over a couple of days to no white spots then when i stoped they came back 2 days later i gave him more garlic for a couple weeks untill the kent garlic bottle was all gone and he never got white spot again

now im not so sure if it was the garlic or sumthing eles very intresting topic atleast i dont have to worry about spending 30 bucks on sum garlic jucie
 
kent marines garlic
as u said this dosent prove how effective it is at all buty i felt it did help with white spot as no other fish contracted it
 
morgan,

I understand you made an observation. You used the Kent product then saw a change. You're convinced it was the product that effected the change. These kinds of observations are important to the hobby. Yet on the downside sometimes they can be misleading.

Kent is an okay company. They make a lot of products used here in the USA, Europe and elsewhere. They are not considered to be the 'high-tech' end of the aquarium industry, but few companies are. Even still, they are reasonably responsible. They sell the garlic product and make no claims for it being anything than a potential appetite stimulant. They sell it under their 'food' category. They also sell the product with a caution not to use too much because it will 'confuse the fish.' What they are describing is what I've included in my first post -- garlic juice can cause fish to be 'irritated' or enter a frenzy state. They make no claims for the product to cure anything.

So, going back to the observation. . .You see spot(s); you add the Kent product; spot(s) go away; spot(s) come back; you add the Kent product; spot(s) go away.

One thing missing is just what those spots are. You see, it could be that the 'spots' are nothing more than a minor bacterial infection or as important as Marine Ich. Such spots can come and go on their own, without any product. In other words, this is a coincidence. So unless we get a fair/good identification of the spot(s) we can't test your observation out.

The second thing is that Kent adds to their garlic product Vitamin C. They use it a preservative, but it is also an immune stimulant. Could the spot(s) appearance/disappearance be connected to giving the fish an immune stimulant? This is a real possibility.

I think you might find that 'spot(s)' will come and go on marine fishes in an aquarium that is overstocked or contaminated with disease, because the fish have some resistance or immunity to the pathogen(s). What would help more than that little bit of Vitamin C would be to supplement their feedings by soaking the food every other day with a good marine fish vitamin product -- which Kent also makes (Zoe Marine).

These kinds of observations are important, but in this case Kent and I know that the garlic in their product doesn't alter the course of infections, parasites or diseases. So, I look for what other things may be taking place, such as your fish developing an immune response, which takes time, or their need for vitamins and immune boosters in their diet, or just a coincidence.

Thanks for posting morgan! :)
 
well i never did say that i thought it was a direct result from the garlic but it may have helped in away as the food was soaked for awhile in the food
i understand what u are trying to say and do not disagree the spots where white spot as far as i know
also i heard that vitaimine c does maybe not help with immune systems its a bit like the global warming argument theres people that are for it and against it
im very intrested in this garlic discussion and happy to add my 2 cents i wouldnt mind if it isnt affective because its expensive stuff unless i make my own but then whats the point?
 
Although there is no "scientific evidence" to date that does that translate into and absolute irrevocable conclusion? Remember, nothing is proven in science until it is proven in science.

Although you state it "does not cure" but through injection it is helpful, it's logical to conclude that through the stomach, garlic will be absorbed at a much slower rate reaching tissue in smaller concentrations making the beneficial human component of your argument one of long term consumption.

Scientists should always have more questions than answers. Once a scientist believes they have all the answers they are no longer scientist.
 
I totally agree. There are so many protein molecules produced by the damaged garlic clove that we haven't begun to discover all the possibilities of the effects it may have. However, we can perform experiments to determine if it cures certain pathologies.

From experiments of garlic juice that is put into food (eaten) no disease has been shown to be cured by it. Not all diseases have been tested, just the pathologies that are most common in commercial/food fishes, where the greatest loses occur. Who knows what we may find in the future, except we know it doesn't cure or prevent parasitic attack (when consumed).
 
There is a chasm between cure and prevention and since most studies are preformed with a "cure" as the objective, are you aware of any studies that concentrate on the preventative aspects?
 
My own experiments of a control group of fishes and a fresh garlic fed group of fishes. Each was in the same marine system, but in two separated tanks.

Marine Ich and Marine Velvet (separately) were introduced. Mortality was the same for both groups in over 90% of the experiments.

My work with bacterial infections has similar results EXCEPT when I added the fresh garlic to the tank water. The garlic juice would in fact reduce the bacterial count in the water, with daily additions of fresh garlic. Old garlic had no detectable effect on bacteria count.

Beyond the above, I have not seen or heard of any technical papers or controlled experiments. It would be very easy to do and the cost is low. So why don't those that sell garlic juice do the tests/experiments? I think you probably know the answer. :D
 
My own experiments of a control group of fishes and a fresh garlic fed group of fishes. Each was in the same marine system, but in two separated tanks.

Marine Ich and Marine Velvet (separately) were introduced. Mortality was the same for both groups in over 90% of the experiments.



I guess if I was any bit a believer in garlic I wouldnt infect an entire system to conduct an experiment. I would Qt a infected fish and see how the one fish responded. Just as if you were to bring home and treat infected new purchase. The non believer in me would think that there is no way the garlic would do any good to continued exposure in a infected system.

I once heard that the garlic juice is a suphate source, any truth to this? Also allicin is a non protien building amino, is there any truth or evidence that shows this amino is a benefit to the fish.

Don

Don
 
My work was grant supported. Large numbers of fishes were used. I got a lot of importation experience, from Filipino collectors. The large numbers were necessary to generate high enough confidence in the results. Had it been me, I would have done it with a few fish. For the industry, hundreds were necessary to prove/disprove the concept.

To be really depressing, it wasn't just a tankful of fish in a system. There were multiple systems, too. :shock:

Let's see. . .next question. . .I don't know the formula for allicin. Sorry. Don't know its relationship to sulfates.

There are about 12 known essential amino acids necessary for fish health. As you may understand, 'known essential' doesn't mean there aren't more. But the allicin protein is not on that list. To my knowledge there is no soft or hard data to imply the allicin protein is needed or incorporated into the fish tissue(s). Similarly, there seems to be no use of this protein by the fish.

Reeferdude,

The experiments were conducted over a 12 month time period. It was because of this particular length of time that I discovered that the MI parasite doesn't live more than 10-11 months in a closed system with fish hosts a-plenty. My 'infected fish supply' were all healthy after 10 months.

The concentration of garlic juice was held near constant by a standard preparation. But it was going to lead to quantitative studies if the qualitative studies showed positive results. The concentration was doubled and tripled (concentrated) to determine if there were any signs of high quantities made any difference. Hence the many systems and the many, many fishes.

 

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