Going Natural

[ethanriley]

I am not sure how far this thread will go, but Krish and I were talking after he and Mike S had a discussion about using natural seawater and what preparation might be required in order to go this route versus R/O and bagged salt.:idea: Obviously, I recognize for some of you land bound folk this might not be an option however there are a few companies out there touting Natural seawater in a bottle. What I wanted to get into is what cautions should be debated when going natural? Is the use of UV preparation necessary or does it in part defeat the purpose of going natural? To supplement or not to supplement? To skim or not to skim? Paul B I am expecting you to chime in cause you got me started on this idea as well How long can the water be held in closed containers with aeration? Where to collect the water? How often to change? Managing salinity and other parameters? What equipment can you eliminate? Biological improvements? Plankton? Feed or not to feed? The more I write the more I see this could go on a few pages.

 

[wrightme43]

I am landlocked so this is not a option for me. I would think, that living seawater wouldnt take well to be locked in a sealed containor for long. It would experince die off and use up all the available o2.
If I were going to do it, I would want it u.v. sterilzed and run thru a filter sock.
Then again that would seem to defeat the purpose.
Thats just my thoughts on the matter, I have been wrong many times and will be again. LOL

 

[Krish]

Sounds like fun...

 

[Krish]

O.k...IMO, I think for me personally, if I were to use NSW in my tank, I'd have to go out in the boat and get it in deeper water, or where atleast, there isn't much human interference. Along the coastline IMO isn't the best place. Too many nasties wash up with the tide, boats leaking oil, gas etc. Maybe it's just me, but I think I'd have to get the water a little ways off of shore (maybe close to a nice and healthy reef)

 

[fishcrazee]

Going au natural, well, it's really a personal choice, some like more support, etc, etc :razz:

I would think making your own salt water would be better, as Krish said, you just don't know what you're getting otherwise. Maybe if you tested what you collected, but I don't know of any kits for motor oil either Maybe adding a small percentage of real sea water would be better, then you would get some of those beneficial things that you just can't get in a bottle?

 

[Paul B]

I do have some experience in this, (about 35 years) I have always collected NSW and even started an entire aquarium store with it. I collect in locally in New York about 5 miles from the city. Probably not the best place. Id rather collect it on the New York south shore beaches which I sometimes do but my boat is on the Long Island Sound. Remember all of your animals come from NSW.
Here in NY the salinity is low so I have to add some ASW. If I am going to use the water within a few hours I just check the temp. and salinity and dump it in. If I will keep it longer you have to filter it by some means. I use a diatom filter but in a pinch you can use a coffee filter. In the Bahamas you would have to do nothing because the water in the tropics is basically dead for all practical reasons. Meaning there is very little floating plankton in it. In the north the water is teeming with life which will die in a short time in a pail. That is the reason all of the worlds fisheries are in northern waters.
The vast schools of food fish are all in cooler planckton rich waters.

Also in a pail the bacteria will multiply vastly due to the surface of the pail. Bacteria multiply many times faster with a surface to grow on. These bacteria are not harmful and will eliminate all the organic material in your stored water but it will turn to nitrate so it is better to remove as much of it as you can before storage.
If you are worried about paracites just keep the water for about three weeks before using it. Keep it airated and dark. In all those years I have never had a paracite from NSW but that is "my" tank, I don't know about yours. Also if you collect water where you can see a red tide. You have to treat it differently, or don't collect it that day.
I can't go into that now.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[Paul B]

Quote
Maybe if you tested what you collected, but I don't know of any kits for motor oil either Maybe adding a small percentage of real sea water would be better, then you would get some of those beneficial things that you just can't get in a bottle?

OK I'm back. This is one of my favorite topics.
As for motor oil, don't worry about it. You can see it from very far away and you would not collect it it. Gas evaporates and is also not a problem. Here in NYC I know all about gas and oil on water. (I am also a Captain)
The plankton in northern waters will not live more than a few hours at tropical temperatures so it is better to eliminate it. If I were in Florada or the Bahamas I would just use it as it is because if you did collect anything living with the water it should live in your tank.
I am surprised anyone living near the sea uses artificial water
In my reef I use about 10 or 20% NSW, I would use more but it is kind of heavy. But because of that water and all the fauna I collect on beaches at low tide, I have a very diverse population of unidentifiable creatures that I find more interesting than the run of the mill stuff that you can buy.
It also gives the fish a diversified diet. The free swimming plankton in northern waters will not live but the stuff found in tide pools at low tide will live and even reproduce in a reef tank. In my opinion, this varied mix of microscope life is very advantageous to a healthy and diversivied reef.
Paul

 

[Krish]

Andrew's brother, when he had a saltwater setup, tested our water around the Bahamas and the specific gravity was 1.027-8. That's a lot higher than I keep mine. So that would be something that you would have to consider using NSW from the Bahamas. If all of your tanks inhabitants came from out of our waters then it would be fine to use it as is (salinity wise). Otherwise, you'd have to mix ro/di water with the NSW to get the specific gravity down to where you would want it. I keep mine at 1.025 now which means, if I personally wanted to use NSW, either I'd have to ween my fish (which aren't from our waters except my wrasse) up to 1.027, or just dilute it a bit to keep it where it is. Just something I thought I'd throw out for discussion sake

 

[ethanriley]

Paul,

I may be in New York in a week or so I would love to see your store.

 

[dnjan]

Krish - you've caught local fish and put them in your tank before with no problems, correct? Any problems?

 

[Krish]

Krish - you've caught local fish and put them in your tank before with no problems, correct? Any problems?

Yeah, I've put local fish in my tank before coming from a higher salinity (Bahamas NSW ) to a lower salinity (my tank's), and some do well and others not so well (which can be a combination of many different things not necessarily salinity related) But, I've never tried the opposite...Putting fish from the US in our NSW... In that case, I would be putting a fish that most pet stores in the US keep in a specific gravity of 1.022-3 into our NSW 1.027-8. I think what I do ( 1.027-8 to 1.025 for the local fish) is less stresful on the fish IMO. I'd be curious to know how corals would adjust though...Never tried that one before

 

[Paul B]

Andrew, that is great, but I don't have a store. I started two stores for other people but I never had one. I am a construction electrician.
Where will you be in NY? I work in Manhatten and live on Long Island.
Where are you staying?
Paul

 

[ethanriley]

I will be in the city, but I have a buddy who lives in Mineola who I havent seen in about five years that I plan on looking up when I am there. I went to NYU so I am pretty familiar with the landscape. I will confirm with you when I know I am going for sure. Krish on the note of salinity I think acclimation is important but remember in alot of fish only systems people use drastic adjustments in salinity as treatment against common ailments such as odiniium. Plus if you adjust the water on a weekly basis from artificial to fresh I don't think your fish will stress that much. I have been taking some readings with my hydrometer from various points on the East end of the island and I find a significant salinity variance from area to area even in the same area depending on the tide. I attribute this to depth of water rates of evaporation, flow etc. Fish swim through these gradients on a constant basis with little ill affects. Now the affect on sessile creatures may be more signifiant, but fish osmo-regulation is less likely to be adversely affected if the change is done slowly. Interestingly with my frst water change my salinity spiked from .026 to .032. I attribute this to two things one I didn't take into account evaporation when I added the fresh salt water and two the area I collected the water from had a higher salinity than I anticipated. Interestingly enough the higher salinity seemed to spur the growth of both green hair algae and corraline. I am working now to reduce the salnity back down to .026. I ask the question again about supplementation particularly kalk and calcium. It would stand to reason IMO that these would still need to be added as these compounds are still being leached from the system?!

 

[Paul B]

Andrew, I can walk to Mineola from my house and many times I work across the street from NYU. Let me know when you are coming and I will give you my phone number. I will give you a tank tour if you like.
Where are you in the Bahama's? I have been to many Islands.
Paul

 

[ethanriley]

That would be awesome I am in Nassau along with Krish. I will definitely drop you a line when I am coming

 

[Paul B]

I am looking forward to it.
Paul

 

[Krish]

Yeah, Andrew...I agree with the "salinity" issue. I mean it is obvious that it's not a problem if done right. People convert brackish water fish all the time to completely fresh or to completely salt. I was just throwing out a point for arguments sake things you would have to consider if going NSW. I think a fish's ability to adjust to salinity is the least of a persons worries. The main issue would be the condition of the NSW used and what would have to be done to it to prepare it for use in a tank.

 

[ethanriley]

Looking for some more feedback. If I take Paul's tack very little needs to be done with our water. One point to raise though what else microscopic is floating in the natural water that we don't want/ I am thinking maybe algae spores? Not sure how saltwater algaes re-produce but I imagine it is possible? Other than that I can't really see anthing to avoid? Anything else that anyone can think of? Any body else on the forum using natural seawater? Wha about ou Seattle folk? I imagine your estuaries must be teeming with life?

 

[DonW]

Looking for some more feedback. If I take Paul's tack very little needs to be done with our water. One point to raise though what else microscopic is floating in the natural water that we don't want/ I am thinking maybe algae spores? Not sure how saltwater algaes re-produce but I imagine it is possible? Other than that I can't really see anthing to avoid? Anything else that anyone can think of? Any body else on the forum using natural seawater? Wha about ou Seattle folk? I imagine your estuaries must be teeming with life?

In Seattle we can filtered sea water from the Seattle Aquarium. It is a little low as far as salinity goes. I'm not sure it would be all that great for a sps tank but for softies its fine. I can tell you it will sludge up a good skimmer pretty quick.

Don

 

[Krish]

I think Andrew, with the free floating algae spores, it would all depend on your system. What I mean by that is someone like me, for instance, I wouldn't put NSW in my tank at all without first running through a UV sterilizer. I have nothing really in my tank that needs plankton, algae spores whatever to survive, that is not getting what it needs from the tank already how it is. Someone else may benefit though from dumping the water in as is for all of the plankton etc that's already free floating in it. Just a thought...