Going Natural

[Boomer]

Andrew

Boomer one final thing there are wolves in all of the Americas and Africa and Asia

Well, now that everyone is awake on that subject Nice to see some did their unannounced home work assignment on that issue :eek2:


I can tell you salinity is less affected by proximity to land than any other factor, anybody ever heard of salt marshes immense concentrations of salt precipitated by what else evaporation rates

We are talking about the ocean and the salinity of the ocean in relation to land and not salt marshes or estuaries. If you look at any map, like the one I posted of the worlds ocean salinity, it is usually lower by shore. So, it is not less affected by proximity to land but more affected by land. That does not mean there are no shores where land as no bering on salinity, just look at Australia. The asian coast line is the best example where land does affect it, due to all the massive rivers systems. Look at the trend of salinity between the asian and north american coasts. In Noth America, where we are at and what started this debate, almost all North American coast lines have a lower salinity near shore and increases out from shore.


Remember there are now lion fish swimming around in the Florida Keys.

And this is because of what ? HOBBYISTS, dumping their fish. Same reason you now have many Amazon fish ( and others) in Florida lakes.

Paul

Where did you get this from But "Plankton" is a small shrimp


That is not the case. Some plankton are small shrimp but not all plankton are small shrimp

filled with copepods, worms, and many crustacean fry.

This is plankton There is zooplankton and phytoplankton. You are thinking of plankton as in "krill". Look up the word "plankton"

I asked why they were not there.

Again barriers, need and what all seem to have missed.....the big one in zoogeography and evolution......... "by chance" . Paul, not the fish near or around Galapagos Islands but the famous Darwin's Finches was what I was looking for someone to pick up on. The first finch ended up there by chance. And to this day, there has not been a new chance for these birds to end up somewhere else "by chance".

 

[ethanriley]

I love the quick wit flying back and forth here:lol: Keeps everybody on their toes. Yes I was aware the lionfish were their because of Hobbyist the point I was making is that is quite possible and indeed has been proven that some very specific species distribution thousands of miles apart and sometimes even oceans apart is a result of human intervention not natural selection. Also it has been proven that in certain species color variations are significant even when referring to the same genus phylum and species. thanks for the fun boomer and Paul:lol:

 

[ethanriley]

Your point on salinity is noted I just hat to admit when I am wrong LOL

 

[Paul B]

Paul

Where did you get this from But "Plankton" is a small shrimp

Boomer, I was wondering if you saw that. This morning about 6AM in Manhattan I remembered that I wrote "plankton" and I was thinking of Krill. You are 100% correct about plankton. When I saw your ocean chart of plankton I just thought about krill. As you know, "plankton" is any small organism in the sea. It could be fish fry, worms, tiny shrimp, crabs, lobsters whatever. The sea in the north is teeming with "plankton". I really have to stop writing before 5 AM. Sorry about the plankton thing.
I do know about Darwins finches. (I was not sure about wolves though)

Nikki and Barry, about the "plankton" in NSW living in our reefs the answer is mostly no. Thats why I filter out the plankton before I add it to my tank unless I will use the water immediately. Not because any of that stuff will live but some of it will be food for a short while. Plankton needs smaller plankton and diatoms to eat. These are not available in a tank.
A good portion of plankton is babies and eggs of larger fish and inverts, even in the sea most of this stuff gets eaten before it has a chance to grow, the rest of it is animals that will always remain tiny but need sunlight, bacteria or diatoms to eat. Also passing through skimmers and UV filters won't help either. What will live in our reefs are intertidal animals like amphipods, copepods, snails, worms, crabs, not barnacles.
Animals that are collected in shallow tide pools or under rocks at low tide have a better chance to live because they are used to harsh conditions. I can go today to a muddy beach near my home in NY and collect amphipods by the hundreds. I have collected them under rocks in the snow when the temperature was 15 degrees, these are the same amphipods that I collect in the same place in the summer when it is 100 degrees. Of course, the animal can't live at those temperatures but the sea does not have that much of a temperature change here, maybe only 35 degrees difference from summer to winter. Also the places I collect vary extreamly in salinity from almost fresh water to very salty water from evaporation.
I have a very old tank set up just for these animals. I have local crabs, shrimp, worms, amphipods, snails, etc. I don't light, heat, filter or do much else of anything to this tank and you can't kill those animals. They will live in my reef if I wanted to release them there. The only local animals that I collect to put in my reef are snails, amphipods and copepods. The crabs which now are Japanese Shore Crabs (released here by accident about 20 years ago) are taking over most of the ecosystem. I can turn over any rock and collect ten of them. They look like sally lightfoot crabs only a little fatter, not bad looking but I would not put them in my reef.

Boomer, about my original thought, maybe you have a theory why the animals are not more widespread. Not just to the Caribbean from Polynesia, that is a long swim and I guess it is feasable that some fish just accidentally would not get there but why are some fish "confined" to a place (not really the right word) when they could populate other areas in the general vicinity, I would think that by now most fish would have populated almost all areas that have the same food and temperatures. I would like to see a test with some caged moorish Idols in the Caribbean. I know this will not happen for obvious legal and envirnmental reasons but I think it would make a good experiment, what do you think?

This is from that site you posted, It is almost exactly what I said about the life in temperate water.

If you sample surface sea water around a coral reef or in almost any tropical ocean, put it into a jar and hold it up to the light, you will find it relatively clear and colorless. Do the same with a jar of seawater from the Gulf of Maine and the water is green in color and filled with thousands of tiny specks swirling around - a veritable sea soup. This soup's main ingredient is plankton, the foundation of life in the sea.

Also this.

Of the 13,000 marine fish species found worldwide, the majority of commercially valuable marine species are found in temperate waters. Many of the marine species available in a typical local fish market, including Atlantic herring and abalone, cod and cusk, halibut, hake and haddock, monkfish and mackerel, salmon and swordfish, blue mussels, northern lobsters and king crabs, would never be caught in tropical waters. Wars have been fought and merchants have made fortunes because of the fish stocks found in temperate seas around the globe.

Anyway, Boomer, take care and don't blow anything up.
Paul

 

[ethanriley]

Booomer one notation from this chart the salinity in and around the Bahamas is actually quite high compared to similar other regions in the Caribbean

 

[ethanriley]

Mike,

I think you are partially misunderstanding me I am not suggesting that the amino acids come in unbound I am suggesting that they are coming in, in microfauna including bacteria dino flagellates etc. Iam suggesting however that the "host" (not the right word) bacteria dino etc being added to the tank and then absorbed by the coral does in fact benefit the coral. I am suggesting that this can not occurr in artifical saltwater and therefore is a benefit of natural. I am collecting in the same place the initial corals came from. Thanks for adding to the discussion and I will defnitely look at the lighting thread. Please add some more as there is a heck of alot covered here. Also it was pointed out earlier in the thread that there are quite possibly alot of benficial compounds in natural saltwater that would not be available in artificial salts

 

[ethanriley]

there are several studies that also link coral pigmentation in particualr SPS to symbiotic bacteria. The pigmentation being determined by light refraction through chlorplasts in the "parasite organism"

 

[ricardo bisdiki]

succes with collected caribean butterflys?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi guys:
I am writing from venezuela, I am a hobbyst crazy for the DYS, from the very beggining, I started reading Sprung-Delbeek, an Borneman, Books that a friend of mine bought and never read (lucky me), then I design a 100 gal reef tank with a 16 gal sump, Metal halides 2*10000 k ushio + 2*48" actinic blue + 2 t5 fluorescent, a 6000 quiet one pump, an two power head and a upgraded seaclone skimer. I started in may 2005, with deep sand bed and caribbean live rock, but there is something thas missing; I planned to have the 5 caribean butterflyes species, 1 french angel and a quen angel, (one of a kind), and a blue Caribbean blue Tang.
I forgot to tell that everething is inside my tank is collected or captured by me because I am an apneits. I have may succed with some hardy fishes, shrimps, soft and hard corals and, anemones.
THE BIG PROBLEM I CNAOT SUCCED WITH ANGELS OR BUTTERFLYES OR TANGS, THEY ALL GOT ICH OR DIE AFTER A MONTH. iS THERE ANYONE OF YOU THAT HAD COLECCT AN SUCCED WITH ANY OF THESE FISHES? NON OF THEME HAD EATING PROBLEMS

SORRY ABOUT MY ENGLISH WRITING, IT IS NOT MY FIRST LANGUAGE

THANKS
RICARDO

 

[ethanriley]

In my personal experience of collecting Atlantic species they tend to be more fragile than store bought Pacific fish which is part of the reason I don't think you see as many in fish stores even in Florida. I have however had great success with both Queen Angels and Blues and Queens though not together. I don't recommend keeping more than one angel per tank of any of the Atlantic species even if your tank is 100 gallons. Juveniles are just as aggressive toward one another as adults. Atlantic Tangs again with the exception of surgeon fish should not be kept in more than three or one alone. Atlantic Butterfly's including Banded, Four Eye, and Reef Butterfly are all very sensitive to temperature change. It is critical to acclimate them in a bag first before placing them in your tank for at least 20 minutes to an hour. Once in the tank it is live food only brine shrimp copepods amphipods i have never gotten them to take flake. I have also gotten both the angels and butterfly's to pick pieces of sponge. When I really wanted to work at it i would harvest halimeda from beds close to shore and let them root out the "critters" inside and then scoop out the algae, but I prefer to avoid these species. All of the above will destroy any corals you try to put in the tank they just can't resist the extended polyps particularly the frenchies.

 

[ethanriley]

The French angels will take flake readily and do thrive on it. I feed ocean nutrition

 

[ricardo bisdiki]

hi andrew:

thanks for your coment, but whenyou say no more than one angel per tank you mean by species or do i have tochose quer or french angel?

As i said i had no problem to make then eat, even the butterflyes,

I prepare a mix with fresh fish eggs, shrimps, squids, musels and other local clams, tera medicated food, a lot of garlic, iCHOP ALL THAT then I freeze it,and at the meal time I make flakes.

Normally the angels eat from the beginig butterflys take two or three days to eat this mixture but they pic some food from the live rock.

normally i try to put a lot of christmas tree, so they feed on them by times but normally dont kill them, and i always can pick some more, because i go very offen to the sea and pick some more just for food.
I have done the aclimatation procces and even try some RO water dips and it helped for a whilw with a four eye but finally die, the fish that lived longer was a small french angel that lived 2 months.

antything you tried that you think could work don´t hesitate to write it
thanks again

 

[ricardo bisdiki]

i made a mistake in the last e-mail when i pressed that i want to unsuscribe the thread. I am very interested
sorry

 

[ethanriley]

Don't worry Ricardo I make mistakes all the time especially with computers and the forum. That receipe for fish food is interesting. I will note watch how much you feed or really increase your water changes Butterfly's are really suceptible to poor water parameters and if you are feeding a home made mix you may be causing huge bacterial blooms releasing ammonia that are stressing out your fish and increasing the incidents of disease (the ick you mentioned) Also it is a good idea when doing wild caught fish to set up a bare-bottom quarantine tank with similar parameters and temperature to your main tank. When I said one Angel I meant ONE Angel. Frenchies fight each other and they will fight other angels for territory as will the tangs and any Atlantic Damsels you choose.

 

[ethanriley]

I like Frenchies the best because they adapt to a wide variety of foods they seem to know their keepers and are hardier than the other species in IMO.

 

[ethanriley]

Ricardo I think we have started in the middle of the topic though and not within the thread topic. What I suggest is to start your own thread where you can describe your orignal tank setup filtration methods, cycling, barebottom or Deep Sand Bed then people like Mike S, Mojo, and Chuck(Mountain Dew Man) can give you some more informed help. Nikki, Paul B, Boomer, Wave 98 and WrightME 43 are ALL excellent sources of information for FO tanks.

 

[ethanriley]

and any other tank for that matter but in your case it sounds fish only

 

[Boomer]

Andrew

Booomer one notation from this chart the salinity in and around the Bahamas is actually quite high compared to similar other regions in the Caribbean

No,they are all almost the same 36 ppt

Paul

If you sample surface sea water around a coral reef or in almost any tropical ocean, put it into a jar and hold it up to the light, you will find it relatively clear and colorless. Do the same with a jar of seawater from the Gulf of Maine and the water is green in color and filled with thousands of tiny specks swirling around - a veritable sea soup. This soup's main ingredient is plankton, the foundation of life in the sea

I agree on a daily bases and you usaually on see high plankton counts on reefs at night and usually tied to spawning.

Of the 13,000 marine fish species found worldwide, the majority of commercially valuable marine species are found in temperate waters

Yes, but Key Word commercially, meaning those we eat and sell in fish markets. A coral reef is the most diverse place on this planet for species, par the hot waters of Yellowstone Natioanl Park....this will throw all for a loop :lol:

 

[Paul B]

Boomer that is true about the plankton on a coral reef. I have dove on many of them, day and night. There are definately plankton blooms that are probably always tied to spawning. Here in the northern waters the plankton is not particularilly tied to spawning. We always have plankton. Much of it is not from spawning it is just a large population of vertibrates and invertabrates some of which will never grow above minute size. The life in these waters is just amasing. It really looks like brine shrimp. It gets less in the winter but it is still there. Our visability is really only inches and when I started diving in the seventees almost half of my dives had to be aborted because of zero visability, literally, not even an inch. Of course this was not all plankton, much of it was mud but a good portion was plankton. I have never found a place in the tropics with much microscope life. There are spawnings but in all my tropical dives the least visability I ever had was in Jamaica one week after a very large hurricaine and it was still about 30'.
Take care guys.
Paul

 

[ethanriley]

The only place in the tropics where I have seen water clouded by spawning and plankton (and no not silt) was in the Florida Keys when we were doing a dive in one of the mangrove canals. As I remember I think the instructor said the majority of it was pilchards. We have an area in the Exumas land and Sea Park which has a key called Shroud Cay if I remeber its been a while and along the back of it we used to ride a tidal river wich we called "the washing machine) It was lined heavily with Mangroves and there always seemed alot more "life" in the water similar to what you guys are talking about up North. I think maybe that is why the Mangroves are nurseries for so many different species of reef fish.

 

[ethanriley]

Boomer or any one else do you have any comparitive analysis on salt mixes versus natural sea water in term of number of compounds present or not present and what portion of those compounds is known, believed or proven to be used by corals in growth respiration etc.