Having trouble keeping alk up

[thatguy559]

okay i have never had this issue in any of my tanks until now. not sure it was the salt mix change or what. i have been using reef crystals for 6 years and came across a a string of bad batches maybe like 5 buckets so i made the switch to oceanic salt mix at this time i also changed my light fixture. so i didnt think that the salt mix was causing any issues i blamed it on the light and not having the glass. so i did a water test and noticed my alk was at 5dkh and my cal was at 600+ ppm. i didnt have a mag test at the time of that test. so for the past 4 weeks i have been dosing alk to get it back up to 9-10dkh and my cal has been slowly dropping im at 550ppm right now, and mag was at 1250. yesterday i came home from a 4 day trip and my alk is at 7dkh it was at 10dkh when i left. i have not tested cal or mag this morning.

so should i make the switch back to reef crystals?
continue to dose alk until its stable?
what else could be wrong?

all other test are zero except ammonia that was at 10 i think that is due to a clam dying in my tank when i was gone.

the only corals effected were: pocipora colony is dying, challice, monti caps (loosing color) acro colony.

all other corals ie: softies and lps are doing great? sorry for the long post im just confused because i have never had this issue in the 6 years i have been reefing.

 

[eww]

Hey Justin is the Ca that high out of the bucket in the oceanic salt? Seems pretty high.

If it were me I would do water changes to get the Ca down to a more acceptable level and then check your alk. It may balance out once the Ca number comes down. It's also going to matter what your Mg and salinity levels are. Mojo explained it best in an article he wrote recently about water chemistry. Here it the link http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f14/simple-water-chemistry-59569/ I really understood it better when he explained it the way he did about marbles in a bucket (simple mind ). You probably already know about all this but I thought I would post it anyway for others to see as well.

 

[returnofsid]

Yeah, you gotta get your Calcium down, probably by doing some major water changes. Also, it'll be important for you to get a Mg test kit and see where your Mg levels are. Mg levels play a roll in Alk levels. If your Mg is extremely low, you'll never get your Alk up. In my signature, are a couple of great links. One is for Randy Holmes' 2 part DIY supplement recipes. It's actually 3 part, including Mg. The other link is to a very useful Reef Chemistry calculator, which can help you determine WHY you're having issues, as well as help you figure out how much to dose, to bring your levels back up. BUT, to use the calculator, accurately, you'll need to know your Mg levels.

 

[mojoreef]

Sid he said his mag was at 1250 so I would think that was the issue, also low mag will restrict calcium levels as it coats the calcium ion and thus not let the alk bind to it.

Justin calcium ions will look to bind to carbonate ions and then percipatate out of solution (might want to check you heaters/pumps for percipate build up) so I would gues that having such a high level of calcium would be beating the crap out of your alk. It will probibly contiue so until it is brought under control. Reef crystals out of the box I believe has a alk of 12 and a cal of 420, instant ocean has a alk level of 12 and a cal of 350. So I wouldnt be looking at the salt mixes as the cause of the problem as their carbonate system is pretty strong and bothe the same.

So what would be causing the calcium build up, do you have a dosing thing going on for it??

Mike

 

[thatguy559]

thats the thing i have been doing water changes 20-50% i have gone through an entire bucket in a week. and the cal is still high. i know its not the test kit because i bought 2 more to check it and its the same. the cal out of the box is 400. alk was 11dkh. the only thing that is dropping the cal is the alk dosing.

as of this morning at 730am.
mg is 1250
cal 550ppm
alk 7dkh.
ph.8.2 (no lights yet)
ammonia is 10
phos 0
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
salinity .0126
tank temp 77.6 (highest is 78, lowest is 76.5)



there is no calcium build up at all on anything. no i havent dosed calcium since last june.


so i need to bring up my mag>? what is a good level.

 

[thatguy559]

mag levels seem to be in line http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

 

[Krish]

thats the thing i have been doing water changes 20-50% i have gone through an entire bucket in a week. and the cal is still high. i know its not the test kit because i bought 2 more to check it and its the same. the cal out of the box is 400. alk was 11dkh. the only thing that is dropping the cal is the alk dosing.

as of this morning at 730am.
mg is 1250
cal 550ppm
alk 7dkh.
ph.8.2 (no lights yet)
ammonia is 10
phos 0
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
salinity .0126
tank temp 77.6 (highest is 78, lowest is 76.5)



there is no calcium build up at all on anything. no i havent dosed calcium since last june.


so i need to bring up my mag>? what is a good level.

Looking at these test results, mag is in a good range for a lower level of calcium (400-420 ish range) which is the ideal calcium range going by typical NSW. If you plan to keep calcium in the 550 range then mag will have to go up a bit if I have that right.

 

[mojoreef]

And that is what should be happening Justin! As you dose the alk the ions from it will be pairing up with the calcium ions and then they will look to percipatate out of solution, this usually happens on heaters/pumps and othe similar surfaces (thats why I said to take a peek at them). SO on that front you are going to get it back to normal but you have to remember that when you do water changes you are also adding calcium to the water, yes at a lower level but still adding it. You can continue this way with the water changes, or you can stop them and then just let your coral calcium tank demand use them up or you could go with supplimenting just the alk until it is under control. Personally I would go with usuing just some baking soda alone to increase the alk with out effecting the other elements. This alk injection will cause the calcium to continue to percipatate until you reach a proper level.

What do you do to suppliment cal and alk?? Also on the baking soda make sure you lay it out on a tray and then heat it for an hour in the oven at around 300 degrees, it will drive off the water and co2.

Mike

 

[thatguy559]

i use use the brs 2 part dose mix it came with alk, mag, cal. i only use the alk now. i used the other 2 last june. the alk is a bicarbonate (same as baking soda) i understand that keeping the alk up will balance the calcium. i was replying to EWW and sid about the water changes wont effect calcium lowering but will only add to it.

 

[thatguy559]

Looking at these test results, mag is in a good range for a lower level of calcium (400-420 ish range) which is the ideal calcium range going by typical NSW. If you plan to keep calcium in the 550 range then mag will have to go up a bit if I have that right.

thanks i was thinking the same so maybe ill dose mag and see from there. for the last 6 years i never had to dose. why now??? lol

 

[mojoreef]

thanks i was thinking the same so maybe ill dose mag and see from there. for the last 6 years i never had to dose. why now??? lol

Buddy dosing mag will have the opposite effect on what yo are trying to accomplish here. Mg ions will coat/surround the cal ions and thus make them unavailable to the alk ions to pair and percipatate out. WHich in normal parameters or when you want to raise calcium is a good thing. When you are looking to have those calcium ions pair up and percipatate you dont want mg interfering.

Mike

 

[eww]

i was replying to EWW and sid about the water changes wont effect calcium lowering but will only add to it.

I am curious... why is the Ca is so high in the first place if you aren't dosing? I thought that without dosing your Ca level (or any level for that matter) would never exceed the level that is in your salt mix. Am I wrong on this? If you take out part of the water that has a certain Ca level and erplace it with new water with another Ca lavel you aren;t adding to the Ca. You should get a blanace between the two levels somewhere. For example if you have a 600 Ca level and you change out part of the water that has a 420 Ca level, shouldn't it lower the Ca level some? I know it wouldn't come down all the way but it should partially anyway... right??? Maybe I am missing something.

 

[thatguy559]

Buddy dosing mag will have the opposite effect on what yo are trying to accomplish here. Mg ions will coat/surround the cal ions and thus make them unavailable to the alk ions to pair and percipatate out. WHich in normal parameters or when you want to raise calcium is a good thing. When you are looking to have those calcium ions pair up and percipatate you dont want mg interfering.

Mike

hmm okay so i will continue to dose alk to get the cal in an acceptable level.

 

[thatguy559]

I am curious... why is the Ca is so high in the first place if you aren't dosing? I thought that without dosing your Ca level (or any level for that matter) would never exceed the level that is in your salt mix. Am I wrong on this? If you take out part of the water that has a certain Ca level and erplace it with new water with another Ca lavel you aren;t adding to the Ca. You should get a blanace between the two levels somewhere. For example if you have a 600 Ca level and you change out part of the water that has a 420 Ca level, shouldn't it lower the Ca level some? I know it wouldn't come down all the way but it should partially anyway... right??? Maybe I am missing something.

i thought it was that way too but does not seem to be the case. Rob at ARSA explained it to me at the last NSR meeting in his place. but i cant recall how he explained it to me..lol

 

[returnofsid]

Test your freshly made saltwater. Lately, there's been a lot of information put out, about Oceanic salt being way too high, in calcium.

 

[thatguy559]

new test 622pm

cal 500ppm
mag 1275
alk 8 dkh
ph 8.4
salinity .0126
temp 77.8

 

[ntswift]

Just throwing this out there because of what Michael said, I am also running oceanic and am having the exact same problems you are. My calcium is way over 500 and I can't keep my ph up to save my life. I just started dosing a buffer to bring my alk up so we'll see if that works but I'm wondering if Oceanic just had a bad batch??

 

[07FocusST]

Typically between the 3 elements (Ca,Mg,dKH) If one is high then you need to dose the other two higher to match them to each other. Same way if (like in my situation) your Ca and Mg are a little high Ca - 520ppm, Mg - 1500 then I would dose dKH till it reached around 12-13dKH. Everything balanced out eventually once all the parameters were matched (Ca:520ppm,Mg:1500ppm,dKH:13) <~ These came down to normal after a few weeks. (Ca:440ppm,Mg:1350ppm,dKH:10)

 

[thatguy559]

but you should have to dose if you do regular water changes is what im getting at. could be a bad batch.

 

[NWDiver]

Hey Justin,
This is a great article from Randy about making adjustments, it lays it out very nice.
http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm