Nitrates will likely never reach 0 again after the tank is established and has a working nitrogen cycle. Water changes will help keep it low, but if you need a target to aim for, aim for somewhere less then 5ppm but don't panic if it gets as high as 10. (Frankly, you can probably double that for short periods without major issues but it will hurt the livestock if too much builds up for long periods of time.)
Hello From WA state!
- Thread starter davisni
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davisni
Active member
Ok, all of the feedback has helped me decide to head down and get rock from my dads tank. All of his rock has corals on it, and I'm not going to remove all the corals, so how much should I add to not completely throw my tank out of harmony? Also would it be good to go get some snails and hermit crabs to assist with the cleaning since I will be introducing algae to my tank? If now is a good time to add them, how many do I start with?
Rock, rock, and more rock.
Always willing to give advice, especially on a topic I enjoy (always question it though, I'm still behind the times a bit but trying to catch up). I'd love it if more folks who are reading this thread piped up and through out thier thoughts. Or .. atleast pointed out obvious faults in what I've thrown out here so far. :S
How much rock is enough? How much rock is too much?
When I first started reefing it was all the rage to darn-near fill a tank with rock, basically starting a couple inches back from the front and going all the back and most of the way up the back wall. This created a fairly stable tank that, in combination with a deep sand bed, could soak up a lot of unintentional abuse ... right up to a breaking point where the tank would crash.
So, why did a lot of these system perform well and then crash? The more live rock you have the more surface area you end up with for bacteria to grow. Unfortunately, this almost guarantees that you will have dead (low/no flow) zones behind and within your rock work. When this happens you can end up causing detritus to be deposited in area's you can't reach/clean easily (basically making small waste-factories).
So, what do people tend to do now to avoid the crash?
Alright, so with those few things in mind, here are some personal suggestions to help you determine how much live rock to have in your display:
What are some ways to adjust your build for medium to high bio-loads and little in-tank bio-filtering?
**: I've never used MarinePure but I did read a few folks saying it releases aluminum into the water, which has a direct/negative impact on the "Leather" family of soft corals. So, you may want to avoid it or look for other, similar products that don't have that side effect.
Edit: Oh, and, if it comes down to it, a hammer + chisel / flathead screw driver can really do a number on live rock (aka, makes quick fragging work and easy-to-glue pieces). Doesn't always leave it pretty though.
~V
Always willing to give advice, especially on a topic I enjoy (always question it though, I'm still behind the times a bit but trying to catch up). I'd love it if more folks who are reading this thread piped up and through out thier thoughts. Or .. atleast pointed out obvious faults in what I've thrown out here so far. :S
How much rock is enough? How much rock is too much?
When I first started reefing it was all the rage to darn-near fill a tank with rock, basically starting a couple inches back from the front and going all the back and most of the way up the back wall. This created a fairly stable tank that, in combination with a deep sand bed, could soak up a lot of unintentional abuse ... right up to a breaking point where the tank would crash.
So, why did a lot of these system perform well and then crash? The more live rock you have the more surface area you end up with for bacteria to grow. Unfortunately, this almost guarantees that you will have dead (low/no flow) zones behind and within your rock work. When this happens you can end up causing detritus to be deposited in area's you can't reach/clean easily (basically making small waste-factories).
So, what do people tend to do now to avoid the crash?
- avoid deep sand beds; shallow (1" or less) or no sand bed tanks tend trap less detritus, and most DSBs never did cycle waste like people thought**
- place rock in ways where water can cycle in, around, and behind the rock so that detritus stays suspended in the water column and hopefully makes it your your skimmer/filter
- manually remove waste if, despite your best aquascaping efforts, you still can't get rid of that one annoying dead zone/detritus resting spot
Alright, so with those few things in mind, here are some personal suggestions to help you determine how much live rock to have in your display:
- use open/airy rock if it's available, the type of rock used will determine flow patterns (in/around or blocked) and overall bacteria surface
- keep a couple of inches of space on all 4 sides (you don't have to, but it makes cleaning the glass and ensuring flow MUCH easier)
- if you have or plan to keep, open-water fish, leaving at least 2/3 of the tank open is a good thing to consider in smaller tanks (so far, the Clowns and Damsel wouldn't require that, the Anthias' definitely would)
- consider what coral's you're going to keep, how often will they need to be pruned/fragged to avoid growing out the top, into the glass, etc
- most importantly, what really appeals to you ?
What are some ways to adjust your build for medium to high bio-loads and little in-tank bio-filtering?
- frequent water changes, it takes time and sweat, but few things can have a larger effect on tank parameters
- add a sump (effectivelly increasing your water volume and allowing for additional equipment)
- use a skimmer
- implement filter socks, and change/clean them regularly
- add a refugium or algae scrubber to allow for controlled growth and easy removal of excess nutrients
- use activated carbon (activated carbon, depending on its type, has a ridiculous amount of surface area but should be used to basically polish the water), expect it to last only a few days to a week but for your tank you'll probably only need about 1/2 cup to a cup per-week (dending on type)
- consider adding a reactor to hold GFO (phosguard)
- consider high-surface volume products like MarinePure (even more surface area for bacteria) and similar techs (generally these require low water flow)**
**: I've never used MarinePure but I did read a few folks saying it releases aluminum into the water, which has a direct/negative impact on the "Leather" family of soft corals. So, you may want to avoid it or look for other, similar products that don't have that side effect.
Edit: Oh, and, if it comes down to it, a hammer + chisel / flathead screw driver can really do a number on live rock (aka, makes quick fragging work and easy-to-glue pieces). Doesn't always leave it pretty though.
~V
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davisni
Active member
wow I actually understood everything you said! Awesome! So I didn't go with deep sand, I have maybe 2 inches in the deepest spot. I got 25 lbs of the fiji rock but it looks pretty sparse. I don't know if any of the fish on my wish list are open water fish, the fish on my wish list are Orchid dotty back, possibly a wrasse depending on if I can find one locally (mystery wrasse, solar fairy wrasse or six line wrasse and I need to be more skilled for the mystery and solar), I really would love to get a goby and possibly someday if I can fit it and not overload my tank, a blue hippo tang. I'm taking the anthias back to Barrier Reef for trade in because my tank just isn't big enough for it. Looking at my rock now, if feels like I wouldn't have much space to actually grow many types of corals as it is now.
Blue Hippo Tang, would not be a great fish for your current setup . If you're dead set on owning one eventually, aim for a nice long tank so they can swim around.
Wrasse' tend to like to jump, so while a lot of them can be pretty small (3~4" range), you'll definitely want a top on your tank (you can DIY a net-style top with a quick trip to Home Depot / Lowes and a bit of measuring). Having said that, be careful which type of you get. Some get to be double the size of others, and a few of them like to bury themselves in the sand at night (you generally want a deeper sand bed for these guys, but the 2" you have might be enough for some of the smaller ones. They also tend to be quite active. The more active the fish, generally the more waste produced. In general I'd have to say you'd be pretty close to your max in fish with the addition of a Wrasse.
The whole Goby, Dottyback, Blenny, Basslets, Hogfish, and Firefish (if you haven't seen these, check them out, they can be almost as colorful as Wrasse) families tend to be low bio-load. A few of them get large, or require a mature, deep sand bed to keep healthy though (mainly sand-sifting Goby's fall into that category). Some of them may even be too timid for the Damsel/Clown, so just do a bit of research before you purchase.
When you go to pick out fish, just remember that:
Clowns:
Damsels:
.. what I'm try'n to say nicely is, you have a moderate amount of bio load and some semi-aggressive fish. You can probably get 1 more 3~4" active fish in there or a few low-bio load fish (depending on the rest of your setup / how diligent you really are with your reef husbandry). Just try and get fish that will, not nesc. avoid the others, but definitely spend most of their time either at the bottom, or in the free-floating area of the tank. Just my $.02 on that.
(I should note, I had a similar setup with 2 clowns, a damsel and a six-line, and they did fine together before I threw the clowns into their breeding setup. They also gave an awesome array of moving color to the tank.)
~V
. If you're dead set on owning one eventually, aim for a nice long tank so they can swim around.- Love to get stressed and break out in Ich (could be just my luck)
- Super-active, likes to have lots of room
- Get's massive (10~12")
Wrasse' tend to like to jump, so while a lot of them can be pretty small (3~4" range), you'll definitely want a top on your tank (you can DIY a net-style top with a quick trip to Home Depot / Lowes and a bit of measuring). Having said that, be careful which type of you get. Some get to be double the size of others, and a few of them like to bury themselves in the sand at night (you generally want a deeper sand bed for these guys, but the 2" you have might be enough for some of the smaller ones. They also tend to be quite active. The more active the fish, generally the more waste produced. In general I'd have to say you'd be pretty close to your max in fish with the addition of a Wrasse.
The whole Goby, Dottyback, Blenny, Basslets, Hogfish, and Firefish (if you haven't seen these, check them out, they can be almost as colorful as Wrasse) families tend to be low bio-load. A few of them get large, or require a mature, deep sand bed to keep healthy though (mainly sand-sifting Goby's fall into that category). Some of them may even be too timid for the Damsel/Clown, so just do a bit of research before you purchase.
When you go to pick out fish, just remember that:
Clowns:
- can produce a large bio-load, especially as they mature
- will swim / stay near their host, generally, mid-to-upper tank if it's a bubble anemone
- depending on the time can get large and bullish
Damsels:
- produce moderate bio-load, easily 1/4 of the clowns
- will pick a section of rock work and guard it
- can definitely be little SOBs if not "given" room around it's territory
.. what I'm try'n to say nicely is, you have a moderate amount of bio load and some semi-aggressive fish. You can probably get 1 more 3~4" active fish in there or a few low-bio load fish (depending on the rest of your setup / how diligent you really are with your reef husbandry). Just try and get fish that will, not nesc. avoid the others, but definitely spend most of their time either at the bottom, or in the free-floating area of the tank. Just my $.02 on that.
(I should note, I had a similar setup with 2 clowns, a damsel and a six-line, and they did fine together before I threw the clowns into their breeding setup. They also gave an awesome array of moving color to the tank.)
~V
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davisni
Active member
I was wondering about the Blue Hippo Tang, if memory serves correctly my dad may have had the same issues you did with them total bummer but i will get over it. The only wrasse Ive had experience with is a bird wrasse and we kept that in an aggressive tank with eels, triggers and angel fish, but I thought my reading on some of the smaller wrasses was that they didn't get very big. I would rather have several smaller fish than just a wrasse so I will keep that in mind. I was reading that some of the blennies and fire fish could be jumpy, so I wasn't really thinking of getting them however if a net top would contain them, that would be an easy thing to build.
total bummer but i will get over it. The only wrasse Ive had experience with is a bird wrasse and we kept that in an aggressive tank with eels, triggers and angel fish, but I thought my reading on some of the smaller wrasses was that they didn't get very big. I would rather have several smaller fish than just a wrasse so I will keep that in mind. I was reading that some of the blennies and fire fish could be jumpy, so I wasn't really thinking of getting them however if a net top would contain them, that would be an easy thing to build.
There are a ton of Wrasse' out there that don't get big, just make sure you check before you head home from the LFS with one. (I'd be annoyed with myself if I brought one home only to find out it would get to large .. or needed a deep sand bed, etc.)
davisni
Active member
Drove an hour last night to my dads to get more rock, he made me take 5 pieces which I'm not sure if it was too much or not but I like the way my tank looks now. Way more caves and places to hide with enough space up top for future fish who like to swim in open water. This morning a couple of the Kenya trees were looking a little sad however as of this afternoon there is only one that is still slumped over. I added a second light because my lighting wasn't strong enough based on my reading and now things are looking pretty good. I got same day delivery on some Aiptasia X to kill off the little buggers tomorrow morning. Now I will sit and wait and test the water for the next week to be sure I have everything good until I bring home the clowns. I will work on doing a water change or two this wee to ensure everything is sound. I got my protein skimmer running but I'm a little concerned about the amount of air coming out of it so I feel that I've done something wrong. I'm attaching a photo of my tank as it was this morning.
davisni
Active member
Also an someone help me figure out how many fish my 36 gal tank can support? I will have 2 clown fish and I don't know what else to add, I would love to add a couple more over time but want to make sure I don't add too many. When I go into aquarium stores I see 55 gallon tanks filled with corals and a lot of fish so I just want to make sure I don't add too many. Thanks
Congrats on the corals! (That one Kenya towards the middle looks super happy.) Do you have any power-heads in there (don't see one in the pictures but there could be one over by the return)?
Fish count is .. I'll let someone else pipe in on this one.
Honestly, tank size, temperament, activity level of the fish, expected bio-loads, whether you run a refugium/sump, etc. all enter into it.
~V
Fish count is .. I'll let someone else pipe in on this one.
Honestly, tank size, temperament, activity level of the fish, expected bio-loads, whether you run a refugium/sump, etc. all enter into it.
~V
davisni
Active member
Yes I had 1 power head but it was so big that I didn't like seeing a gigantic brick in my tank, so today I picked up 2 nano sized power heads that I installed about 2 hours ago
davisni
Active member
Vandur as far as fish load goes, I'm very happy having small fish like bennies, gobies and dotty backs, I just done want to go overboard. What I'm reading online is 36 inches of fish for 36 gallons, but that to me seams like too much. I really just don't want to go overboard out of my own excitement.
Hmm, a while back the saying was something like 1" per 3~5g. Which seems.. kind'a low to me now (equipment, testing, & more frequent water changes help). It really depends on the fish you stock and your equipment. In-active fish and fish that scavenge throughout the day don't tend to provide much of a load (I'd consider these Blenny's and Goby's). Where as Anthias and Clowns .. well. They make a d**n'd mess (luckily in the Clown's case the anemone they host with benefits).
With just the two Clowns (Ocellaris? True Percula?), I'd think there would plenty of room left for a Dotty Back, Wrasse, Goby and Blenny. Most Dotty Backs would be a good combo with the Clowns as they won't get bossed around by it. Same goes for most Wrasse. The Goby/Blenny, I'd consider almost "free" in terms of bio-load. Make sure you don't add fish to fast though. I'd probably try and limit myself to 1-per week until you're sure the tank can support them.
Side Note: Make sure you get a top for your tank if you do end up with a Wrasse and/or the Dotty Back as they like to carpet surf.
~V
With just the two Clowns (Ocellaris? True Percula?), I'd think there would plenty of room left for a Dotty Back, Wrasse, Goby and Blenny. Most Dotty Backs would be a good combo with the Clowns as they won't get bossed around by it. Same goes for most Wrasse. The Goby/Blenny, I'd consider almost "free" in terms of bio-load. Make sure you don't add fish to fast though. I'd probably try and limit myself to 1-per week until you're sure the tank can support them.
Side Note: Make sure you get a top for your tank if you do end up with a Wrasse and/or the Dotty Back as they like to carpet surf.
~V
NanaReefer
Well-known member
Personally I've never adhered to the inch per gallon concept. I've always gone by the particular fishes needs and behavior.
davisni
Active member
Ok so its looking like I just need to go low and slow and watch how my tank responds, I can do that. I killed the aiptaisia with aiptasia x this morning, maybe tried would be a better explanation. They are so hard to get the stuff on without having them close up or release their spores. Please tell me you guys have some trick to kill the little devils!!
NanaReefer
Well-known member
Persistence, stealth and tenacity! Works for me
davisni
Active member
I'm happy to report I killed all the big aiptasia and my new peppermint shrimp have been munching away on the small ones. I got 10 snails that surprised me by eating the red algae on the rocks I brought from my dads tank. My clown fish survived me catching them and transporting them to my tank, they seem to be doing really well, exploring the entire tank, rubbing on the anenome and even doing a mating dance. Unfortunately the power went out at my dads on Thursday for a full 24 hours, the heater wasn't working properly and stayed on, it cooked the anthia and everything still in his tank. I'm heartbroken this happened and praying some of the corals survived. Now the process of cleaning and breaking down my dads tank begins.
davisni
Active member
Yeah, there was so much in there I was hoping to remove and attempt to sell, I went down there with the purpose of doing the red algae treatment as well as killing off all the aiptasia I could so the rock would be sellable but now who knows if there is anything left alive, I will head down in a day or so and try again. It was over 90 degrees when I got there and no idea how long it was that high. I'm relieved I took the fish and corals i did when I was there, the power was out and something just gave me a feeling to get them now, thank god I did because I would be in tears finding the clowns dead. In 8 years, I've never seen these clowns so active and literally all over the tank, in the big tank they just hid all the time in their cave except to eat. I'd say they love their new digs.
