Help me design my new 240gal setup!

[Slickdonkey]

Help me design my dream tank!

Hi all, check out this nice new tank I'm buying!

It's a real beauty and if all goes according to plan, I'll have this tank until I retire and sell my house, which will be in about 30 years or so.

I've kept marine fish for about 5 years and never really ventured beyond live rock and invertibrates like crabs and starfish. My primary interest is fish, but I would like to eventually start moving to more of a reef setup with corals and inverts once everything settles down. This is really TBD, but I want to design the setup to accomodate all options. Better to overkill than underkill and find out you have to rework something.

So, I'm hoping I've come to the right place for advice. I'd like to ask the question: what would you do with this tank if you had it? I'm pretty new at this, even though I've had a marine tank for a while. I've been "out of the loop", you could say.

Here are a couple of things to start with:
- I am estimating the weight of the stand, tank, and canopy at up to 3000 lbs once filled with rock and water. The tank will be placed along the living room wall (not an outside wall). I will have a structural engineer come out to check my floor. This house was built in the 70s and literally uses complete tree trunks to support the house. I remember the building inspector when I bought the place saying "they don't make 'em like this anymore..."

- I'm thinking of an under-house design. There is practically infinite room in my crawlspace under the tank. It is about 5'8" high and the footprint of the entire house. I could fit some serious water down there. There is one problem: the only access point is a 2' x 3' entry. So this means lots of 32 gallon rubbermaid cans or I take the materials into the crawlspace and construct something there.

- I don't really like the glass-bottom look. I'd like to have a substrate of some kind.

- I like the idea of a refugium, and if you look at the link above I think the middle cabinet would be a great place to put one with some sea horses and other mellow inhabitants. Usually I think of the refugium as part of the sump, which may be under the house, so I'm not sure yet how to do this.

I don't really have any existing equipment that I think can be used, since my current tank is only a 75 gallon. I do have a 15W UV sterilizer and an RO unit (no DI). That's about it!

Really the sky is the limit for now. I'll make the hard financial choices later. I want to do this right the first time and enjoy this baby for many years to come. Throw any ideas my way.


Thank you!
Brian

 

[bc_slc]

wow, great looking tank and really nice stand. Really good deal on the combo. You will have a ton of options with this tank.

The four major pieces of advice i will give you is (1) plan a closed loop from the very beginning. It is really hard to go back and do this after the tank is settled.

(2) if you can use a distant location for the sump/refugium etc and have extra space, you will apreciate it. It is tough to fit everything under the stand. This comes at the cost of an extra sized return pump which will consume extra energy getting the water back to the tank. I would plan a bit of flow in the tank via returns from the overflow/return and the majority of the flow via the closed loop. The major reason is that you are going to have a very inefficient pump as a return (no matter what you use due to the friction and work of climbing up the level) and a very efficient pump as a closed loop. Make the efficient work do the work.

(3) If you plan to start with simple things and advance to more delicate things (i.e. sps corals), then i would recommend a VHO setup. They are cheap if you get one used and will still be helpful even if/when you upgrade to metal halides. You can keep a lot of things with VHOs.

(4) To try and save pumps you can try and plumb your skimmer into the drain from the tank, and you can try and plumb a calcium reactor/chiller/etc into the return pump.

Mat

 

[Slickdonkey]

The four major pieces of advice i will give you is (1) plan a closed loop from the very beginning. It is really hard to go back and do this after the tank is settled.

Good idea, I plan to do so.

(2) if you can use a distant location for the sump/refugium etc and have extra space, you will apreciate it. It is tough to fit everything under the stand. This comes at the cost of an extra sized return pump which will consume extra energy getting the water back to the tank. I would plan a bit of flow in the tank via returns from the overflow/return and the majority of the flow via the closed loop. The major reason is that you are going to have a very inefficient pump as a return (no matter what you use due to the friction and work of climbing up the level) and a very efficient pump as a closed loop. Make the efficient work do the work.

Point taken. I think I will try to do this, even though it's going to be a pain. I'll be happy later. And think of the hundreds of gallons of water I could pump through the crawlspace...

(3) If you plan to start with simple things and advance to more delicate things (i.e. sps corals), then i would recommend a VHO setup. They are cheap if you get one used and will still be helpful even if/when you upgrade to metal halides. You can keep a lot of things with VHOs.

Ok. I was thinking of getting MH to start with, but heard they are electricity hogs. It may still be a good idea to wire up some extra breakers before installing the tank to support this possibility in the future.

(4) To try and save pumps you can try and plumb your skimmer into the drain from the tank, and you can try and plumb a calcium reactor/chiller/etc into the return pump.

Intersting idea. How does this work? Doesn't a skimmer need a fairly high powered pump to work properly? I wouldn't think the natural gravity flow from the tank would cut the mustard.

Thanks for your ideas; if anyone else has some bright ones I'm all ears.

Brian

 

[reedman]

Ok. I was thinking of getting MH to start with, but heard they are electricity hogs.

It depends on what you want. You can use electronic ballasts that will not use that much electricity, but you can't run HQI bulbs then.

Couple more things for you.

• What is your final vision? Do you want to keep SPS, LPS, Softies, or a mix? I ask because it's almost impossible to rid your tank of softies once they are intoduced.
• With MH, get the Luminarc reflectors....expensive, but worth the money in my opinion. Better spread and more light for your money.
• Decide how you want your flow to work...not just how much flow you want. Do you want it to flow back and forth across the tank (left to right and back again), do you want chaotic flow, some combination? There are more and more flow control devices out there that allow you to get great flow in your tank that can be tweaked to best match your inhabitants.
• Since you like fish, figure out the fish you want and determine which corals you can have with them. Some just won't work together.
• Figure out how you will get the moisture out of the crawl space. Exhaust fan or something. You don't want mold down there and the ventilation wasn't designed for that amount of water under the house.
• Plan your maintenance routine first. Then plan your tank to accomadate that routine. It will make doing the work much easier. Think about things like water changes, skimmer cleaning, pump cleaning, water testing.
• Determine your tolerable noise level. This will affect your pump & fan selection.
• Isolate any plumbing or pumps from the floor & walls. Use rubber or styrofoam.
• If you go under the house in an unheated area, insulate the plumbing (good for both summer and winter).
• keep asking questions

 

[Slickdonkey]

(2) [snip] This comes at the cost of an extra sized return pump which will consume extra energy getting the water back to the tank.

Whoa, you aren't kidding. If my calculations are right, running a pump drawing 5 amps 24/7 @ $0.084/kWh is going to cost me $33/month! Maybe I can just have my wife run up and down with buckets really quickly all day long.

 

[Slickdonkey]

Geez, is it just me or is this forum loaded with people from Washington?

Thanks reedman, you have some good suggestions that I didn't even consider.

It depends on what you want. You can use electronic ballasts that will not use that much electricity, but you can't run HQI bulbs then.

I think it would also be cool to have a dimmer to simulate sunrise/sunset and also moon lights. I know these are kind of just for fluff, but I really like them.

What is your final vision? Do you want to keep SPS, LPS, Softies, or a mix? I ask because it's almost impossible to rid your tank of softies once they are intoduced.

I'm still trying to figure it out. Bottom line is, I don't know that much about corals or inverts. I have a ton of books on the subject coming to my door today. All I really know is that SPS is more difficult! I am willing to do some amount of weekly or biweekly maintenance, but anything that requires daily attention just isn't realistic. If I plan for this up front I will be happier in the long run, and so will my aquatic buddies.

With MH, get the Luminarc reflectors....expensive, but worth the money in my opinion. Better spread and more light for your money.

Thanks, I will consider this.

Decide how you want your flow to work...not just how much flow you want. Do you want it to flow back and forth across the tank (left to right and back again), do you want chaotic flow, some combination? There are more and more flow control devices out there that allow you to get great flow in your tank that can be tweaked to best match your inhabitants.

As you said, I think this will depend on what's in the tank. I think a combination would be good, or something that is easily adjustable if I don't like it.

Since you like fish, figure out the fish you want and determine which corals you can have with them. Some just won't work together.

Right. As I said I have some books to read up on the subject. I will have a better idea in a month or two what I want to put in the tank.

Figure out how you will get the moisture out of the crawl space. Exhaust fan or something. You don't want mold down there and the ventilation wasn't designed for that amount of water under the house.

Right, this was kind of nagging me in the back of my mind. Maybe a dehumidifier?

Plan your maintenance routine first. Then plan your tank to accomadate that routine. It will make doing the work much easier. Think about things like water changes, skimmer cleaning, pump cleaning, water testing.

I plan to automate everything as much as possible (controllers, computer monitors, etc). With a little kid and another one coming in June, life is going to be very busy ahead.

Determine your tolerable noise level. This will affect your pump & fan selection.

In the crawlspace I really don't care. However, the living room shares the 65" TV, so the closed-loop needs to be quiet.

Isolate any plumbing or pumps from the floor & walls. Use rubber or styrofoam.
If you go under the house in an unheated area, insulate the plumbing (good for both summer and winter).

Oooh. Good idea.

[*]keep asking questions

Indeed!

Thanks so much for taking the time to help out.

 

[Slickdonkey]

Oh, I'm also a big fan of anemones. Clams are cool too.

 

[mattseattle]

I'm confused on this statement. I thought the Icecap electronic ballast could run HQI bulbs? The ARO electronic ballast also claims to be able to run DE HQI bulbs.

It depends on what you want. You can use electronic ballasts that will not use that much electricity, but you can't run HQI bulbs then.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The ARO electronic ballast is nice looking and best of all, its easy to set up. It will run any 250 watt lamp and comes with a 3 year warranty.

* 250W Electronic Ballast: Energy Saving - up to 25%
* Model #LN-250-02
* Extended Lamp Life - up to 25%
* Consistent Lamp Color
* Uniform Lumen Output
* Reduced Lamp Flicker
* Cool, Silent Operation
* Long Ballast Life
* 120VAC, 250W, 2.2Amps
* Works with all 250W lamps.
* Works with 250W HQI double ended lamps.
* One lamp ballast.
* 3 year warranty.
* Power factor >90%, Lamp Current Crest Factor < 1.8.
* 8 1/2" x 3 3/4" x 2 1/8" (LxWxH)[/FONT]

 

[Scooterman]

It depends on what you want. You can use electronic ballasts that will not use that much electricity, but you can't run HQI bulbs then.

This is new to me, my e-ballast made by blue-line would run every bulb but one I think it was called a starburst.

Just a tid tat

Location location location, to me think about this one, easy access to changing water, hauling water etc while cleaning. Allow room behind the tank, 6" is a good number to start. Everything else mentioned i agree, up me even with experience I'd still refresh read as much as I can, plumbing, lighting additions later. Plan for your final desires but start off simple, knock out stuff like plumbing foremost before finding the final resting spot, from there have plans for adding equipment in the future but not necessarily now. Last just to mention it electrical needs can get high so plan power consumption, maybe consider adding a dedicated circuit, install GFCI on anything that goes in the water. Oh yea the wall it will be next to, that I'll consider painting with something that can hold up to moisture etc, it is a good thought.
ok I'm done, he-he, you can search almost anything mentioned here & get some good reading up on, it may take time but well worth it.

 

[mattseattle]

one thing I noticed on my tank and having it in a living area. Somehow you need to vent out the moisture from the evaporation from the tank/sump. I had some tools near by and they rusted. I had to get a dehumidifer for that room and that solved the issue. You may not have this issue if your house is well ventilated.

 

[reedman]

All I meant by not being able to run HQI bulbs is that most people want a certain color out of a bulb. An HQI ballast puts more power into the bulb changing the color. If you run the same bulb on an ebalast it will run, but at a different color and a lower PAR. Look at Sanjay's data. Plot the same bulb with one on an IC ballast and one on an HQI...The PAR is much higher on an HQI. The spectrum difference I don't see in his plot, but I have observed in person.

You can run any bulb on the e-ballast...I ddn't state that clearly...sorry for the confusion

 

[Scooterman]

Ahh that is right I guess I read you wrong but it is all good now. Yea They can run them & also recommend ballast designed for HIQ.

 

[Slickdonkey]

It's been a few years since I looked into skimmers. I have an ETSS Reef Devil 3 for my 75 gallon tank. I hate it, total piece of junk.

I've been thinking of looking at Beckett skimmers for my 240. Anyone have some quick advice as to what to look for? I'd like to have something that can handle ozone if I choose to add it later.

Most likely I'll get an external model, but I don't really care. Everything is in the planning stages at the moment.

 

[Slickdonkey]

I'm leaning towards an ASM skimmer (probably G4X) with the gate valve and recirculation modifications. I guess I would have prefered an external rather than an in-sump skimmer, but this seems like good performance for the price.

Any opinions on this?

Moderators, you may want to move this to the "Tank Design" forum. My bad.

 

[bc_slc]

ASM, Euroreef and Aqua C all have good reputations. I personally have an Aqua C and it works great. I think either of these three would be good.

 

[Rock-N-Ruin]

I have a PM bulett 2 which works fine, I will be testing out a ASM G-3 and Aquamedic Turbofloater 1000 in the next couple of weeks. One thing about the beckett's is that they are quite finiky!!!!!

 

[Slickdonkey]

Ugh, I hate finicky. My last skimmer was finicky and I don't have the time to babysit it all day. Besides, this one will be under the house, and I don't plan on making the trip down there every single day!

 

[Slickdonkey]

Here's a quick sketch of how I'm planning to lay out the sump. Very basic, and will probably require another pump to get water through the chiller, UV, etc.

Comments?

 

[Slickdonkey]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Shall I proceed as planned or am I an idiot?

 

[LakeEd]

Brian,

I'm guessing from what I can see in your picture... that you are planning on using 2 Rubbermaid containers... end to end??? That should give you pleanty of volumn for your sump/fuge I would think. Something I might think about more however... would be some type of baffling system in the 2nd sump... so the water level in the fuge area would remain constant... and only the section that your reutrn pump takes a suction from would be effected by your evaporation.

Hope that gives you something to think on, and improve.

Ed