HELP!! RBTA attacked by Surpent star! any hope?

[menace78]

I turned on the lights after finding that my new glass cleaner sucks on salt crept glass and noticed my water was cloudy.
After looking around for a few minutes I noticed my RBTA was almost all the way closed up and it was very deflated.

I moved the rocks so that I could get him to a better area to look at and notices this(check pic) on his side.

The only thing I have in the aquarium other than snails and coral is 2 clowns and a large serpent star that body is solid grey with 5 grey/black striped legs

I have come to the conclusion that the serpent star must have seen an easy meal because the RBTA was moving lower in the rockwork closer to where the serpent star had made his home.


I currently quarantined the RBTA to a bucket with current tankwater and it's own filter, light, ect.
It seems to be trying to open up but hasn't inflated it's tentacles very much, and it about 1/3 of it's normal size (normally ~7-8" across. currently maybe 3-4").

Is there any hope?
What should I do?

 

[menace78]

He is currently like this:

 

[Holygral]

BTA deflate on their own fro expelling waste etc. I would not have moved him. I have 2 BTA and 2 serpent stars and have never had a problem. I would test water parameters and put him back in the main tank. I do not understand your cloudy water though.

 

[NaH2O]

It looks like it may be going through a split or it was sucked onto a powerhead? In the first picture I see a whitish area on the side of the anemone. Is that just the picture or does that area have mesenterial filaments sticking out?

I would think it might be splitting before I would jump to the conclusion that the star was a problem. What species of snails do you have? The cloudy water may have simply been from stomatella snails (hitchhikers) spawning or trochus snails spawning. My trochus snails completely cloud the water when they do that. So does the urchin

 

[returnofsid]

I highly doubt your RBTA was attacked by your serpent star. Also, it's never a good idea to attempt to move an RBTA. It'll go where it wants. Moving them can cause quite a bit of stress and cause them to really start to wander around. Once this happens, there's a higher chance of them getting harmed by powerheads and such. I'd just let it be for now and watch it. Don't attempt to feed it until it appears "happy." ( fully inflated and a healthy looking mouth) RBTAs are quite good at healing from injuries.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I turned on the lights after finding that my new glass cleaner sucks on salt crept glass and noticed my water was cloudy

Please explain what brand and how administered. I consider almost every glass cleaner highly toxic to any reef inhabitants.

 

[trillyen]

I think here fishy fishy may be on to something. I hope the problem gets solved man

Hopefully its just splitting.

 

[menace78]

It looks like it may be going through a split or it was sucked onto a powerhead?

Defiantly not splitting and wasn't caught in a powerhead.

In the first picture I see a whitish area on the side of the anemone. Is that just the picture or does that area have mesenterial filaments sticking out?

That whitish area was what I was taking a picture of.
It was actually a hole in the side of it's stock with (for a lack of better naming) innards folded outwards around the edges (I'm assuming this is the mesenterial filaments you mentioned?)

Please explain what brand and how administered. I consider almost every glass cleaner highly toxic to any reef inhabitants.

It was a new Green Works natural glass cleaner and it left a film on the glass..
Went back over it with Windex and it was clear again.
As for applying it I always spray the cleaner on a paper towel in the kitchen and never spray the cleaner near the tank.


On a good note I placed the anemone back into the main display at about 4am this morning after it seemed to be doing better. the hole in it's side had closed up to 4 smaller holes and this morning it's completely open and i can't see the area right now.
It's still not fully inflated but seems to be recovering well.

The serpent star has been banished to the sump and after chasing it threw the rockwork for over 30 minutes I noticed allot of uneaten krill which is what I had been spot feeding it for a while. After getting him into the sump and feeding it another piece of krill it took it in then released it under my cheato and left it there.

I'm came to the conclusion that it doesn't like krill aberrantly and must have gotten very hungry. But it was the culprit.

I'm probably going to try some other foods for it and see what it does and doesn't eat then maybe he'll be re-introduced to the main display with watchful eyes.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

It was a new Green Works natural glass cleaner and it left a film on the glass..
Went back over it with Windex and it was clear again.
As for applying it I always spray the cleaner on a paper towel in the kitchen and never spray the cleaner near the tank.

I'm came to the conclusion that it doesn't like krill aberrantly and must have gotten very hungry. But it was the culprit.
.

NEVER use any ammonia based cleaners, even near the tank. TOXIC and probably what caused the problem

The odds of a serpent chewing into your anemone is highly remote. If the krill was uneaten, then the tank is also very overfed and probably has sky high nitrates and other polutants. Sorry for being harsh, but sure looks that way to me.

 

[menace78]

NEVER use any ammonia based cleaners, even near the tank. TOXIC and probably what caused the problem

The odds of a serpent chewing into your anemone is highly remote. If the krill was uneaten, then the tank is also very overfed and probably has sky high nitrates and other polutants. Sorry for being harsh, but sure looks that way to me.

Since you were so blunt at you're assumptions on my husbandry, here's the tests.

Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
Phosphates: 0
Ammonia: 0
dKH: 11°
Temp : 79.5°f
SG : 1.025

As for feeding. I spot feed the serpent and anemone, and my 2 clowns get fed every other day ~1/6 of one block of assorted frozen foods.

The cleaner is not even sprayed in the same part of the house as the tank and is only introduced to the glass via paper towel. Not to mention the Windex I use is the same that I use for the windows in my car, tinted windows safe.
(Ammonia free so it doesn't turn the black tint purple).

Not to mention ammonia can not take a chunk out of the side of an anemone. It would certainly reek havoc with the corals and fish in the tank but not do physical damage.

Please next time try asking before jumping to the conclusions that I don't care for my tank.

Thank you all for you're feedback and if I ever have a problem that I need to ask assistance for, I'll remember to leave out anything irrelevant, like what I was doing when I spotted the problem.

 

[Maxx]

Menace,
I dont consider myself an expert, but I've been keeping anemones for several years now. I can honestly saw I've never heard of an anemone being attacked by a serpent star. Stars are more scavenger than predator, although there are numerous reports of serpent stars eating fish.

BTA's are famous for splitting when stressed. During the split process, it looks pretty ugly, like the anemone was torn in half. All of the splits I've seen started at either the edge of the foot/base of the anemone or the oral disc, not middle of the base like in your picture. The stringy material exposed in the side of the anemone were the Mesenterial filiaments that Nah20 was talking about earlier. Generally, its not good to see them. I'm glad to hear that your anemone has recovered somewhat, that is promising.

As far as Herefishy making assumptions about your husbandry....the information you gave earlier makes that an understandable conclusion:

I turned on the lights after finding that my new glass cleaner sucks on salt crept glass and noticed my water was cloudy.
After looking around for a few minutes I noticed my RBTA was almost all the way closed up and it was very deflated.

The serpent star has been banished to the sump and after chasing it threw the rockwork for over 30 minutes I noticed allot of uneaten krill which is what I had been spot feeding it for a while.

I had initially come to a similar conclusion based on those two statements....

That wound on the anemone could have been caused by mishandling by whoever sold it to you, or by a hitchiker crab that you may not know about.

I wouldnt feed the anemone for awile yet...feeding can cause stress, which can cause a split. Alot of times this is viewed as a positive thing, but stress induced splits are a survival mechanism designed to maximize survival chances of the anemone. Basically, they mean something is seriously wrong, and the anemone is trying to survive.

How long has the tank been running? How long have you had the anemone? What is the tank's pH?

Nick

 

[NaH2O]

I think this was all something stress induced. I understand what Maxx is saying about mishandling, however, the water was noted as being cloudy. If the tank water was cloudy, then something stimulated a spawning event. Whatever triggered this, likely created the same stress with the anemone. It could have been a parameter shift, that you weren't able to pick up on, but was enough to cause what happened.

I'll wait to hear the follow up answers to Maxx's questions.

 

[Allenfamily]

Fishyfish may be blunt, however if you read the posts on here for a while you'll find that he's usually right as well.

 

[Curtswearing]

Ok, let's calm down and all be real clear on this....Even if the cleaner had Ammonia in it, that's what nitrifying bacteria are for. They process Ammonia into Nitrites and then Nitrites into Nitrates. Everytime a fish osmoregulates this can cause an excretion of Urea (i.e. pure Ammonia). The bacteria in your live rock and live sand will fix this. This is a VERY fast process. Nitrifying bacteria can double in population in 20 minutes.

I doubt that a star could or would have caused this to happen to the anemone. I would suspect that an injury or shift in chemistry has caused this anemone to try and split. It is a survival mechanism that anemone's employ.

I have been doing this hobby for a while. If there's one thing that I've learned, it is that I will NEVER know enough. That's why I contact trusted friends for confirmation of what I think is happening. Two heads (if trusted heads) are better than one.

 

[NaH2O]

Fishyfish may be blunt, however if you read the posts on here for a while you'll find that he's usually right as well.

This post is uncalled for and unnecessary. Let's get back on topic and help out a fellow member. Everyone on this board, no matter who you are, can be incorrect at times. No one is without faults, and everyone can learn from other's experiences. There is no need to post something like this. All it does is degrade the forum.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Even if the cleaner had Ammonia in it, that's what nitrifying bacteria are for. They process Ammonia into Nitrites and then Nitrites into Nitrates. Everytime a fish osmoregulates this can cause an excretion of Urea (i.e. pure Ammonia). The bacteria in your live rock and live sand will fix this. This is a VERY fast process. Nitrifying bacteria can double in population in 20 minutes. .

Curt, yes the various bacteria reproduce quickly, but cycling a new tank or even a changed tank takes time due to the fact that nothing good ever happens fast in a reef aquarium. I can not accept that the nitrates and or nitrites and NH3 are zero with cloudy water, uneaten krill accumulated under the rocks, and a sick anemone. I suspect the test kits (or test strips) are not reading the nitrogen compounds present.

The poor critter is folding and its highly unlikely that it is from a poor serpent munching on it. Could be, but I doubt it. If the tanks current pollution was beyond the nitrification capability of the rock at that time, the added ammonia could have been a straw breaking the anemones back. Blaming the star avoids finding the other probable causes of the trouble. One of which is apparently overfeeding.

What is the size of the tank?
Temperature stable?
Uncovered powerheads?
Salinity?
PH?
Size and time of last water change?
Inhabitants?
How long has it been set up?
Other known issues?

Sorry if anyone took offense, none was intended. I am a fairly blunt person but respect all and appreciate each and every contribution to this hobby.

 

[Maxx]

Curt, yes the various bacteria reproduce quickly, but cycling a new tank or even a changed tank takes time due to the fact that nothing good ever happens fast in a reef aquarium. I can not accept that the nitrates and or nitrites and NH3 are zero with cloudy water, uneaten krill accumulated under the rocks, and a sick anemone. I suspect the test kits (or test strips) are not reading the nitrogen compounds present.

This is possible. I found two of my salifert kits reading way low after being open for lengthy period of time. I would suggest replacing any open test kit after 9 months.

The poor critter is folding and its highly unlikely that it is from a poor serpent munching on it. Could be, but I doubt it. If the tanks current pollution was beyond the nitrification capability of the rock at that time, the added ammonia could have been a straw breaking the anemones back. Blaming the star avoids finding the other probable causes of the trouble. One of which is apparently overfeeding.

The anemone looks alot better in the second pic than in the first, but still a long way from healthy. Menace also stated the hole has healed somewhat. New pics would definately help out. One thing to note is that if the tank was going through a cycle period, that anemone would have died already.

What is the size of the tank?
Temperature stable?
Uncovered powerheads?
Salinity?
PH?
Size and time of last water change?
Inhabitants?
How long has it been set up?
Other known issues?

Good information to have for pinning down a possible cause or condition.

Sorry if anyone took offense, none was intended. I am a fairly blunt person but respect all and appreciate each and every contribution to this hobby.

There are ways to be direct without being offensive. Remember that internet forums dont allow non verbal communication to a part of the conversation, therefore its easy to misinterpret statements made by other people....especially "blunt" comments.

He's here asking for help, not a public beating. He can go to other forums and get that. Lets try and help rather point fingers. I've been in this a long time, (22 years now), and I started out needing help, and still need help on things today.

Nick

 

[menace78]

I would like to first state that after being up till 4am and having to get up to work again at 7am I was a little cranky when I posted the last reply, and I apologize for my short temper.

As for all the posts since then.. I'll answer them all in this post one by one.

It was a new Green Works natural glass cleaner and it left a film on the glass..

Was in my 1st post.

Went back over it with Windex and it was clear again.

Was in a later post. I'm sorry if this wasn't clearly stated. There was no spawning event and no cloudy water. The cleaner made it look that way when looking threw the glass and went clear after re-clining with Windex.

That wound on the anemone could have been caused by mishandling by whoever sold it to you, or by a hitchhiker crab that you may not know about.

The anemone was purchased from a fellow reefer from this forum and was not mishandled or damaged before this incident.

as for a hitchhiker crab. All my rock and sand was purchased from another reefer from a tank that was over 4 years old. after that amount of time I'm sure any and all bad hitchhikers were taken care of although If I am wrong about this I think it would take a pretty large crab to take a 1" chunk out of an anemone.

How long has the tank been running? How long have you had the anemone? What is the tank's pH?

The tank is one month old. put together from a transfer from a 4 month old smaller tank and a 4 year old larger tank.
There was a very small cycle after the changeover and I lost no livestock including my pom pom xenias.

I introduced the anemone 2 weeks ago.

Sorry for forgetting to add that in the parameters I listed.
The PH is 8.2

The poor critter is folding and its highly unlikely that it is from a poor serpent munching on it. Could be, but I doubt it. If the tanks current pollution was beyond the nitrification capability of the rock at that time, the added ammonia could have been a straw breaking the anemones back. Blaming the star avoids finding the other probable causes of the trouble. One of which is apparently overfeeding.

I already stated my feeding habits in a previous post and I'll leave it at that.

What is the size of the tank?
Temperature stable?
Uncovered powerheads?
Salinity?
PH?
Size and time of last water change?
Inhabitants?
How long has it been set up?
Other known issues?

135g
temp ranges from ~79-~80 (morning to night)
All powerheads are covered and there are none behind rockwork. I use a spreybar for water movement behind rocks.
Already stated SG but it's 1.025 @ 80°
PH : 8.2
15g water change on the 6th of this month and 20 more gallons today.
Livestock other than snails include 1 green candycane polyp, 3 small silver xenias, 4 small pom pom xenias, 5 green and 2 red mushrooms,~5" finger leather, ~8" BTA, 1 serpent star ~9" (tip to tip), and 2 onyx perc clowns about 1" each (still juveniles)
setup already stated above.
Only known issues I have had other than this is the darn aptesia that I just got along with that finger leather that I'm going to have to take care of soon

Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
Phosphates: 0
Ammonia: 0
dKH: 11°
Temp : 79.5°f
SG : 1.025

I suspect the test kits (or test strips) are not reading the nitrogen compounds present.

I use API kits (don't trust strips) and both my master saltwater and master reef kits are 4 months old and just to make sure had the water tested by a friend and came out with same results.

and just in case there is a question about nitrogen cycle i have that tiny amount of bioload in a 135g tank with a 20g sump with about a gallon of cheato and 100+lbs of live rock and a 1" live sandbed.
most of that coming from a very established reef tank.

And I have done the searches online and if all you that dought that a serpent star could do this. Go Google "serpent star attacked". It's allot more comment than even I thought.
Most people say it's a crap shoot. some good some bad.

The BTA is doing allot better although I still can't see the damaged area (he hasn't closed up at all since he was put back into the tank) and has almost all of his color back.

 

[Maxx]

Your anemone is doing much better, good job!

Couple of thoughts though....

I think it would take a pretty large crab to take a 1" chunk out of an anemone.

actually, no it wouldnt. Without clownfish to protect them, most anemones, especially BTA's are very susceptible to predation. In a test on the barrier reef, clownfish were removed from their anemones. IIRC, in less than 72 hours, most of the anemones had been eaten.

The tank is one month old. put together from a transfer from a 4 month old smaller tank and a 4 year old larger tank.
There was a very small cycle after the changeover and I lost no livestock including my pom pom xenias.

Your tank is still very young to be stable enough for an anemone, but yours appears to be doing better.....so you might make it. Dont use Xenia as your "Coal miner's canary". They are much more tolerant of water quality swings than anemones are.

What time of day are testing your pH? Is your refugium on a reverse light cycle? I ask because I had some issues in a previous tank due to pH swings at night, which I was unaware of. This in turn stressed out an RBTA I had, and caused several splits. Test your pH about an hour to an hour and half after your tank's lights go out to see how much your pH changes. If your refugium is not on a reverse light cycle, you may be surprised.

And I have done the searches online and if all you that dought that a serpent star could do this. Go Google "serpent star attacked". It's allot more comment than even I thought.
Most people say it's a crap shoot. some good some bad.

I've never once heard of an anemone of any kind being attacked by a serpent star. I googled serpent star attacked. Every post was about it eating fish, (which is common enough if they get hungry), or about them being attacked and loosing legs. Please show me a source or a link to someone else having a similar experiance, because frankly, I seriously doubt that your serpent star was the cause of the injury on your anemone.

The anemone was purchased from a fellow reefer from this forum and was not mishandled or damaged before this incident.

BTA's live with their foot buried in the rockwork. Unless the reefer gave you the rock with the anemone attached, it was removed from the rock, which could have possibly damage the base slightly. It doesnt take a very big tear for the mesentarial filiaments to be exposed like that....

Regardless of how it happened, I'm glad to see your anemone is doing better. Hopefully this will continue and it will be in your care for many years.

Nick