High Phosphates why?

[Gazbo]

unfortunatly I dont have much info to give as far as each individual tanks but I have a friend that took over a fish maintenance business about a month ago and came over with some water to test and he has 5 tanks that are at 1.5-2 for phosphate readings he has been doing weekly to bi-weekly water changes and using a phosphate sponge media remover. He says things where not well maintained before he took over and there is not a large bio load or overfeeding happening with these tanks and was wondering where his source is coming from he has new filters in his RO/DI so that should not be a issue. He said he has been adding turbo calcium by kent and some API algea remover.

I guess my main question is if not overfeeding and low bio load and new RO/DI filters what other sources can we check into to try to eleminate this issue. I can understand one or two tanks having issues and not all of them. I am just scratching my head trying to figure what else to look for sorry I don't have more info. I was hoping everthing tested fine I was planning on giving him a bunch of corals and a couple of anemones that split recently to make room for new additions after hitting up the Bob Moore frag swap.

I gave him my phosphate tester to test his new salt mix to double check that hopefully I will get his results for that soon.

 

[james734]

What salt mix is he using? If all 5 tanks are about the same you're on the right path of checking the makeup water as the source first. Does have a reference point to what the levels where prior or you just assuming it was lower than this prior.

On thing that is also over looked is the overflow for detritus. Has that been cleaned. Would be surprised to see what collects in there. Would be surprised to see all 5 being the cause but just a data point to check also. Have these tank been lacking maintenance also. The sudden change and extra work being done now is may be releasing bound up phosphates from substrate etc.

Just a few thoughts..

 

[james734]

Excuse the type-o's etc. dang autocorrect on phones now days makes us look illiterate most of the time.

 

[MAC2]

Is there live rock in all of tanks? I had phosphate leeching from my live rock for several months after I had a temperature malfunction which caused a die off.

 

[Gazbo]

Is there live rock in all of tanks? I had phosphate leeching from my live rock for several months after I had a temperature malfunction which caused a die off.

Yes all tanks have live rock and that is what we where thinking but wasn't sure that live rock absorbed phosphates then slowly releases it back as the water as it improves. He tested his new salt batch and its ok, so I think the tanks where so neglected that he probablyalready had high levels and think these tanks are setup with a garf plenum system of coarse gravel bottoms, he mention he siphoned the gravel bed and it was the ugliest smelling stuff he ever seen and smelled. Not having a beginning reference point doesn't help matters either. So I think he can only increase his water changes and keep using a phosphate reomover and not add or due anything until these levels reduce.

At what point are phosphate levels harmful I know it depends on the tank stock but think these just have simple items like leathers, paly's mushrooms, grp etc.... nothing that is to sensitive to neglect. I know he would like to add more delicate items in time to give his clients better service and looking tanks.

I appreciate your guys help I just wasn't sure if I was missing something, or if there is something else we needed to look into why he is expierencing high levels.

 

[james734]

Sounds like the work he is doing is stirring stuff and releasing, leaching back out of the substrate and or rock. 1.5-2 is not great but as you mentioned it all really depends on livestock, but it's also pretty amazing how stuff can adapt over a long period of time where the levels might not even affect the livestock. I wouldn't recommend adding anything new at this point and just do the best to bring is down over a period of time. Not familiar with the PO4 sponges out there. I personally would recommend running some high capacity GFO like RowaPhos or BRS has some good stuff also. But run a media reactor to help absorb it. Follow the directions and maybe even cut it in have for a little while to not strip all the PO4 out to quickly as this could shock things that have already adjusted the current levels. You should be able to measure the output of the reactor and see a drop in PO4. Once it starts to increase, time to replace. Keep in mind GFO can suck up a lot of PO4 quickly and become exhausted fairly fast in a tank already with high levels.

As for the grated, gravel based filters. Might be worth trying to siphon the substrate, gravel and/or whatever else out of the tank slowly over a period of time. Again taking things slowly. Trying to reduce the amount of crap from being released. And be aware this can and might even cause small cycles. But it might also be better to just let it be. Only siphon/clean the top 1/2" or so and not disturb it to much. Really your call at this point and without actually seeing the tank and knowing how long they've been setup is really a guess on my part.

 

[Gazbo]

Well thanks for the advice, I haven't seen these tanks either but know the guy he bought the business from and have a rough idea on his setups maybe its time to go on a field trip and take a look.
I will let him know to go slow and not go to fast hopefully he will join RF told him he needs to for help/advice and all the nice people. Its also a plus that most RF members are somewhat close to our location.

 

[Gazbo]

Well just got done looking at one tank and this one has one of the worst hair algae outbreak I ever seen and he's been attacking it for a month now so next Saturday we are going to remove rock scrub it down and see if that helps his phosphate levels are at 1.67 any advice for this battle? Of the five tanks this is the only one with algae. Its 250gl tank with MH and VHO new mh bulbs and the vho lights are not working we will tackle that issue as well. I will post some pics soon.

 

[Gazbo]

Here are some pics of the tank and setup it has so much potential but will take alot of work and time to get things back on track nothing has been done for 5 plus years bulbs not replaced skimmer wasn't working but has that going now but working properly but a little is better than nothing it is a trickle sump system there are two and a large chiller in the middle don't know why since I don't see really enough things creating heat to warrant it but good to have incase. I know some of you will say its not that bad but remember he has been battling this for a month now and he said before he started you couldn't even see the rock and he is finding more corals every week he didn't know where in there. He has been using phosphate sponges and doing water changes you can see the algae breaking up and releasing he scrubs the rock once a week best he can its getting easier now that its starting to break down. He expierenced a small flood last night only guess is that the algae plug the overflow enough that the pumps over powered and drained the sump it was dry.

We both feel bad for the client that basically been screwed by the previous owner. this tank is in a high end lobby in a orthodontist waiting room area. The client is please with the progress of the tank since he took over and is already wanting more fish and I can see why a tank this size and only has 3 clowns, royal gamma, flame hawk and some cool angle medium in size. But convincing him to wait might be tricky so like I said we are going to pull all the rock scrub it down best we can get as much as possible out of there so the cleaning crew can hopefully manage it from there but thinking even after that it will be a couple of months before it might be eliminated and ready for restocking.

So any advice and suggestions I am all ears.

 

[james734]

Not sure how affective the PO4 sponges are. Get a media reactor and run some GFO in it and plan to replace it weekly at this point as it will exhaust quickly with levels that high. What are all the other params as I can image Nitrates are high also? With 5 years of neglect it's going to be a long road ahead to get things back in to proper order. I think he/you are on the right track just going to take a awhile and some perseverance. Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank.

FYI: That Berlin skimmer in there looks a little under powered for that size of a tank. It's probably fine now with the current bio load but he starts adding more I'd say it's going to need to be upgraded along with the trickle filters. Fine for fish only but they are a nitrate factory and not typically recommended on reef tanks. Are there bio-balls in there? You might want to start slowly removing them also.

Oh and removing as much of the hair algae is good. As it dies it releases the bound up PO4 it currently has.

 

[Gazbo]

Well thats good to hear and I did tell him that depending what the client wants for his goal on his tank that the skimmer needs to go and be upgraded and never thought of removing the bio balls, would you look into replacing the sumps with something more efficient or like you said pull the bio balls out and try to convert it into more of a refugium system. it has a uv strerlizer on it as well but not working either. I to told him a phos. reactor would be better but like me I am not sure how well the sponges work and he is not familiar with reactors so it may take some convincing but price wise think its worth adding to the tank in the long run. Told him he needs to become member but he said he is not that good on tech stuff so that also may take some time

 

[james734]

At this time I'd just slowly remove the bio balls and try to convert what's there until things get back to proper order. Once you start changing the skimmer etc. I imagine the sump(s) will needs to be changed in order to accommodate that and no reason to really start throwing a bunch of money at it at this time. Also do some research up on Bulk Reef Supply. You can pretty much get everything you need to run a GFO rector and they even have a combo unit that basically converts a RO/DI chambers into a reactor into a GFO and Carbon reactor. Personally I like mine separate due to different flow requirements of the media, but read the reviews. But their GFO is a fair price and you get a get a nice bulk supply of it. TLF phosban 150 I think might be a little small, but they do have a 550 model.

Again this is something that isn't going to change over night. I'm betting it's goings to be 6 months or so before things really start to look better. Neglected tanks take a while to get back in proper order. Chances are there's a lot of bound up PO4 in that tank that will start to leach back out once the levels in the water column start to decrease. Also make sure to take a turkey baster or power head and blow the rocks off as part of the maintenance. Helps with getting the organics in the water column to be filtered out.

 

[dnjan]

If you are going to run a phosphate absorber, put some carbon in series before the phosphate absorber. My understanding is that most phosphate absorbers also absorb organics, and running a phosphate absorber on its own can result in exhausting the phosphate absorber (from organics) without actually removing much phosphate.

 

[Gazbo]

Really? I was not aware that phosphate absorbers can collect other organics and exhaust them faster. Is with any phosphate absorbers? He is using sponges now and thinking of doing a reactor or maybe a algae scrubber. Is it true that your rock will absorb phosphate and release slowly as your water parameters get better. Sounds like this is going to be a long battle I figured after this Saturday when we are done pulling the rock out scrubbing the hair algae off and removing as much as we can by hand so the clean up crew can hopefully maintain it from there that we would be back on track in a couple months but now sounds more like 6+months

 

[senji]

might be worth it to shut down the tank and cook all the rock and sterilize everything else. just saying might be easier. and u know its done right.

 

[pandora32]

Ok. Im sure somebody is going to say something about what im going to say...lol. If it was me, i would leave the rock where it is. What i would do is, exactly what your doi g by plucking out and cleaning off the rock. Get rid of that trickle filter, find a way to fit in a filtersock so any algae that goes down the drain is caught in the sock. Buy a nudinranch to mow it down and/or a bissletooth tang, like a kole tang. Thats their main food source, algae grazers. If there is gravel or something of that size in the substrate, maybe start replacing the substrate...slowly. Heres something for you and your friend to read~

DeepSandBeds

 

[dnjan]

I found the reference on phosphate absorbers being exhausted from absorbing organics quite a few years ago, and don't remember where now.
But, it can't hurt to put carbon, in series, before any phosphate absorber.

 

[Gazbo]

The substrate on this tank is what looks like fine sand mixed with larger particles and not sure if its plenum but think it is it about 3+ inches deep I will check it out this weekend. Think I will have to go check out his other tanks to to see if there all setup the same and maybe work a large order to get better pricing, Does anyone know a good wholesale outfit for small businesses, either livestock or product wise but sure he will be better off ordering from brs, but think he only has one source for livestock which is very limited on verieties.

 

[ReefGeeker]

Yellow tangs are cheap and they love hair algae! Pluck Pluck Pluck, maybe do larger WC's and get rid of those balls because nobody likes dirty balls.

 

[dnjan]

The big problem with yellow tangs is how easily they starve when all the hair algae is gone.