Hmmm anyone want to talk about this one??

[mojoreef]

chris&barb they are folks here that practice many types of reefkeeping. What I was talking about wasnt really a BB or sand thing it was just the level of intelligence used in putting that test together. For me reef keeping will always be a hobby and I have no problem with folks have no sand or a whole bunch. What I tried to do is peel away the BS from any system and let the person know how it works, that way if they go dsb or ssb or BB they have a better chance at sucess. After all that is what we are all trying for.

It seems these days or at least over the last few years that these wonder experiments and hypothisis's have been just ridiculas. Rons salt study, or heavy metals stuff are toher that come to mind. I would hope that folks that try to tout Ba's and doctorates would have a little more responcibility in what they are producing rather then the "I am pushing my agenda regardless type of approach". If they only knew how many folks they screw up or how many critters died as a direct result of this kind of stupidity.


take care


Mike

 

[steve-s]

It seems these days or at least over the last few years that these wonder experiments and hypothisis's have been just ridiculas. Rons salt study, or heavy metals stuff are toher that come to mind. I would hope that folks that try to tout Ba's and doctorates would have a little more responcibility in what they are producing rather then the "I am pushing my agenda regardless type of approach". If they only knew how many folks they screw up or how many critters died as a direct result of this kind of stupidity

I'm biting my tongue so hard right now I think it's gonna bleed... LOL :lol:

Cheers
Steve

 

[MikeS]

It seems these days or at least over the last few years that these wonder experiments and hypothisis's have been just ridiculas. Rons salt study, or heavy metals stuff are toher that come to mind. I would hope that folks that try to tout Ba's and doctorates would have a little more responcibility in what they are producing rather then the "I am pushing my agenda regardless type of approach". If they only knew how many folks they screw up or how many critters died as a direct result of this kind of stupidity.

Very well put Mike, I couldn't agree with that statement more! You can make it sound really legitimate by using lots of scientific terms and statistical nonsense, even though the experiment was very flawed to begin with... It's real easy for somebody to draw incorrect or inaccurate conclusions from a study like that, dangerous stuff....

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Come on Steve spit it out, lol


Mike

 

[CarlaW]

chris&barb they are folks here that practice many types of reefkeeping. What I was talking about wasnt really a BB or sand thing it was just the level of intelligence used in putting that test together. For me reef keeping will always be a hobby and I have no problem with folks have no sand or a whole bunch. What I tried to do is peel away the BS from any system and let the person know how it works, that way if they go dsb or ssb or BB they have a better chance at sucess. After all that is what we are all trying for.



take care


Mike

And we thank you for that!!!!

 

[Skimmy]

the next time i want to kill a tank full of creatures i'll know what to read and try... those poor puffers!!
i wanted to join reefs dot org just so i could flame the authors.
yeah, and think of all the noobies readin that crap, kinda reminds me of setting up a reef tank with equipment from petco.

 

[steve-s]

Come on Steve spit it out, lol

Mike, the last thing I want to do is turn this into anykind of a "Doctor" bashing thread but all things as they are, I find it very hard somedays to keep it civil. When you have as has been noted in several threads on this forum, new hobbyist's, they are very impressionable and typically feel safer with the advice of a Phd over your average hobbyist. Some of those Phd's who stick to and maintain the professionalism of their respected fields can and usually are quite an asset to the hobby. Others whom stray to "other pastures" tend to muck it up but good, not to mention contradicting themselves as the years pass by.... LOL. I'm sure many here as well as other forums have had a few hair pulling days trying to undo the damage.

The examples as stated in your previous post are but some. Temps, keeping your anemone in the dark/less than acceptable lighting and stuffing it with food. As well as one very respected site (not this one ) has a tendancy to lean towards not quarantining new animals. I could go on but.... :evil: :lol:

Cheers
Steve

 

[mojoreef]

Yea I hear ya Steve. After almost a decade of trying to undo thier damage it does get old. One really has to wonder if the 400 a month is worth thier reputation.


Mike

 

[MikeS]

Yea I hear ya Steve. After almost a decade of trying to undo thier damage it does get old. One really has to wonder if the 400 a month is worth thier reputation.


Mike

Hey, but you are doing a good job, you are one of the few people in a long time I actually take serioulsy and listen to when it comes to the pitfalls of the DSB... :lol: So see, some of us can be helped :lol:

You know, I've made plenty of mistakes in marine tank keeping over the years, simply because I wasn't aware of the pitfalls of what I was getting myself into...and that has taught me one important fact, do lots of research, and never, ever rely soley on one person's point of view. Even then you can fall victim to misinformation. In the information age we live in it's easy for myths or misinformation to be perpetuated...I added my DSB around 5 years ago, and it's no conicidence that happened to be the time that the DSB craze was at its peak. 5 years ago, you could ask 20 people online about DSB's, and 19 of them would promote them...so no wonder I did it. Do I regret doing it? No, not really, I got 5 years of 0 nitrate readings out of it....it has done what I expected it to do thus far...Would I do it again if I could start over? Not sure...perhaps not...Would I do it in the future, again, not sure, it would depend on the tank...

Now, with my tank upgrade, I'm going to do a plenum on a suggestion from mojo. I had considered it prior to my DSB, but at the peak of the DSB craze, so many people were anti-plenum, it had fallen out of favor. I have put in quite a few hours re-reading all I can find on plenum setups, from many different authors and sources...and right now I'm confident that it will be superior and more long lived than my DSB. Am I nervous? sure...lots can go wrong, but I'm really attempting to arm myself with information better than I was when going into the DSB...

Ok, sometimes I just type and ramble...I guess what I'm trying to say is that newcomers to the hobby are undoubtedly going to make many of the same mistakes we did, it's just the way it is...however, if you can get a few of them to listen, step back and not blindly follow one viewpoint, then that's a good thing and worth it....

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Mike running a dsb tank or any reef tank for 5 years is a sucess story. See the problem is not that they dont work its that they DO with limitations thats all.
I could also write an article and tell folks that corals eat bacon?!?!?! I could have 20 or so studies referencing my theory and get some buddies to write simular articles supporting me. But what is the purpose of why they are in this to begin with?? is that study some how going to help folks??

Mike

 

[Jiddy]

Corals eat bacon! wow im gonna try that

 

[mojoreef]

Jid we should talk about snail acclimation!!



Mike

 

[MikeS]

Mike running a dsb tank or any reef tank for 5 years is a sucess story. See the problem is not that they dont work its that they DO with limitations thats all.

Thanks Mike, although many times I attribute my success thus far just as much to blind luck as to any skills I may have picked up :lol: I agree, However I wish I had known more about said limitations to begin with...I mean a few years after I put my DSB in, this kind of information began to surface more and more frequently, and I tended to blow most of it off...but as more and more of it surfaced, I could no longer totally ignore it...When I first met mojo, I had heard many of the arguements before, but he wore me down... :lol: And subsequentually forced me to re-evalutate my perception of the DSB
http://www.coralforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1687

I could also write an article and tell folks that corals eat bacon?!?!?! I could have 20 or so studies referencing my theory and get some buddies to write simular articles supporting me. But what is the purpose of why they are in this to begin with?? is that study some how going to help folks??

Mike

That's exactly what angers me about that "study". These guys went into it with a bias, and then make inferences based on their results. Anybody can do this. Add a "PHD" and some very complicated statistical references to it and all of a sudden you have what appears to be a very legitimate scientific study.

As I stated above, I have a good background in and a continuting working knowledge of statistics....for anybody who is interested, I'd be more than happy to wade through it and explain exactly what can or cannot be inferred from their results...

MikeS

 

[Jiddy]

Jid we should talk about snail acclimation!!



Mike

Whats that suppose to mean?

 

[chris&barb]

HI all
im kind of new to this forum, but not new to reefkeeping.
i read that report when it first came out,but didn't think much of it.
what i mean by that is ,it's just another report.

Mojoreef
i do apprecate you clearing up the fog!!! it's refreshing
i have a 500g linked system.with some tanks having ssb, dsb,cc,i guess my point is that they all need TLC.
read a lot,post a little

 

[Jiddy]

Jid we should talk about snail acclimation!!



Mike

Mike we should talk about your personal webpage!!

 

[clayswim]

That's just mean Jid, lol

Clayton

 

[Jiddy]

He started it

 

[NaH2O]

Jid we should talk about snail acclimation!!

Mike

Mike - I think we should! I doubt Jiddy knew the proper technique when he added his clean-up crew.

Here's a quote from the article:

This manuscript was improved by discussion and comments from Eric Borneman, Anthony Calfo, Charles Delbeek, Tom Frakes, Richard Harker, Tim Hovanec, Larry Jackson, Julian Sprung and the many other excellent aquarists at the XVI Marine Aquarium Conference of North America.

All these guys listed.....I wonder how many "improved" the discussion. Or how many thought this experiment/paper was flawed.

As I stated above, I have a good background in and a continuting working knowledge of statistics....for anybody who is interested, I'd be more than happy to wade through it and explain exactly what can or cannot be inferred from their results...

Mike, its been awhile since my statistics course at Purdue - I could use a little refresher.

 

[zeltar]

I like bacon!!!!