Holes in Fins

[csababubbles]

Lee, I noticed my Idol has developed about 6 tiny (<1mm) holes at the base of his dorsal fin. He has had a 2mm hole in one of his fins for a few years now but now I see the new holes for the first time and am worried. He has no other unusual visual markings indicating infections/health problems.

Any idea what this is and what can I do?

Thanks for your help Lee.

 

[leebca]

I don't think I have ever seen such a thing in any fish. If they aren't really tares but clearly defined holes, there may be something in the display nipping at the fish. That 'something' could range from another fish to some kind of opportunistic organism.

There is also the fact that, if such a hole was and has been present since acquisition or just after acquisition that the fish has a genetic variance. How is the length of the fin? Is the tip/end of the fin stiff or limp?

Inspect all fishes very closely and monitor the Idol very closely. See if holes increase or reduce in size and numbers over the next few days.

 

[csababubbles]

I don't have any fish that could cause this in the display. The wholes were not present since acquisition. The single large hole on his fin has been there for a few months but the six small holes are very new, maybe just a few days. I think it may very well be an opportunistic organism. The tank is being treated with cupramine at this time. Do you recommend any other treatment at this time or do I wait until the copper treatment is over?

The length of the fin is about 4". It was nipped off a few months ago but has steadily regrown. The tip/end is semi-stiff/limp. Its definately much more limp that Idols I have seen in the wild. Do you have any specific food recommendations to help the nutritional deficiency he is probably experiencing?

This is his diet:

 

[leebca]

I would not perform any other treatment at this time. Perhaps after the copper treatment you may consider a treatment to address flukes (such as a medication containing organophosphates).

To date the weakening of the end of the dorsal fin is a mystery to me. I see large Idols in public marine aquariums that don't have this condition. I have been 'behind the scenes' and found the foods provided them does not differ from what I have recommended. The only thing I can say is that in those public aquariums, the Idols are usually in aquariums of 500+ gallons.

 

[csababubbles]

The idols you have acclimated to captive care for others to take care of long term....do you know by any chance what tanks those people put them into? Any of them smaller than the 500+ used in public aquariums? Do you know if any of them are experiencing the limp fin too? Are most of them still alive?

 

[leebca]

The answers to those questions come with a few IFs ANDs or BUTs.

Of those fish I've processed and given to others:
When the people maintain the feeding I recommended, more than 80% have lived over 3 years. Most are still alive.
When the people have 'invented' their own foods and feeding regimes, less than 10% have lived over 3 years. All are currently dead that I know of.
All tanks were 300g or less.
To the best of my knowledge, all had the 'limp fin' syndrome. Some display this in the first few months, others it has taken a couple years.

 

[csababubbles]

Lee, I re-read all of my old posts asking you about feeding and to sum it you recommend feeding the following to the Idol:

Greens/vegetables (including green, purple, and red seaweeds, spirulina, and powdered kelp) a top priority with meaty sides of whole organisms (octopus, squid, shrimp, scallops, non-oily fish, clams, cockles, whole krill, and ocean plankton). With alternating fat and vitamin supplements.

I would very much like to keep my Idol alive long term so would you be kind enough to share what is the feeding you speak of that you recommend to the Idols you conditioned? Did I miss anything?

 

[leebca]

That's it.

 

[csababubbles]

Do you feed only your own concoctions or do you also feed prepared frozen foods?

Also, I know how you feel about flake food in general, but is 100% spirulina in flake form ok? Ocean nutrition sells this.

 

[leebca]

I feed my fishes 5 times a day:
1 pod meal
1 macro algae meal (snack if you will)
1 home made food meal
1 macro algae meal (snack if you will)
1 prepared commercial frozen food meal

That last one is very rarely: blood worms, live mini worms, or pellet

Maybe not so surprisingly come that last meal, if my fish 'think' they in any way don't like the offering, they know they can pass it up for one of their favorites the next day.

Read the label on the flake food. I think you know what you don't want and what you want to feed. If there is no land binder (wheat, wheat gluten, etc.) or land products in it, then I'm for it.

I remember in the ol' (ignorant) days, we fed our Moorish Idols oatmeal. I'm referring to 'cooked oatmeal' stuck to a plate which they nibbled at. (Still had limp fins, though).

 

[csababubbles]

Lee, the copper treatment is wrapped up. I am doing a large water change tomorrow. I would like to address the Idol's holes. They have neither increased in size nor increased in quantity but are still obvious when looking at the Idol closely and especially when he flares his dorsal. Which fluke medicine do you recommend? You mentioned something about making sure it contains organophosphates. Would you be kind enough to elaborate on your recommended treatment advice?

 

[Ricko]

Sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but i have never seen a limp dorsal on an idol and can't seem to imagine how it would look, does anyone have a pic of this?

 

[Ricko]

My avatar, is that dorsal limp?

 

[csababubbles]

I'll post up a picture of my captive Idol and then I will post a picture of a few Idols I took pictures of while diving off of Maui a few weeks ago. The difference is night and day.

 

[leebca]

Organophosphates are the most effective against many external parasites.

You might see these as ingredients: trichlorfon or Dylox which are brands or alternate names for organophosphates. You can do an Internet search for these chemicals. Just be sure to bypass those listed for cats and dogs and be certain the product is a marine fish medication.

I think you'll have to do some label reading. I think if you look at fluke meds for fishes, you'll find what you want to use. I think one product is called Fluke-Tabs.

Whatever you do you DO NOT want to use Clout. Very dangerous to marine fishes.

 

[csababubbles]

Do you think the Cupramine treatment would have killed the responsible organisms?

 

[leebca]

No. The 'higher' the form of the parasites, the less likely copper has an effect on them. Consider the difference between fish and Cryptocaryon irritans. The fish, the 'higher form' is poisoned, but lives through the treatment. The 'lower form' dies. These flukes and fluke-like parasites are in between.