I need immediate help in everett my fish are dying!

[Kitteness]

I have been on reef central and have been doing what told but my fish are just acting really strange. I am going to have to start a quarentine tank but I need to know what is wrong with them? I thought it was ich but now I am beginning to wonder if it is something else? I need someone to come look at the fish and tell me what they think? The fish are acting so weird they are like playing slapstick with themselves (not against anything just when they floating) the foxface has big white spots on him the male clown is not good he has like almost brown spots or something. They keep lunging forward breathing heavy I know what it sounds like but I am starting to think it is something else cuz all the corals are fine the nitrates were at 80 last night after water change and pH was 7.8 anyways I would just feel ten times bettter if someone would look at them and see how there acting and helped me out

I have thread on RC in reef discussion that says need immediate help checck it out and tell me what the hell is going on?
Jacque

 

[Paul B]

Without seeing them it is difficult but it sounds like classic Ich to me. It is one of the only things that would make them breath heavy and "play slapstick" Do you mean they shake their head back and forth fast? If so, they have an advanced case if ich (or another paracite just as bad)
They may be too advanced to help but if you don't put them in a seperate tank with copper right now I doubt they will live long. As I said, hard to give a diagnosis from here but I have been dealing with ich for almost 50 years and thats what it sounds like. People will tell you to use "hypo" and that is up to you but it will not work fast enough to save those fish. Of course this is only my opinion.
Good luck.
Paul

 

[Kitteness]

well they shaking head ya but they slap the body in the process

Do I stress another water change? I am going to go to petsmart and get a glass tank to make a quarentine tank what size is best?
and what do i need for it? copper? what kind? i never done this before? how long till I can add the fish to it? leave it bare bottom? and put in plastic decorations or what?
Okay the test results were nitrate down to 40ppm, nitratite was at .25 and pH 8.2 and my stupid ammonia test bottle had a crack so i gotta new test

Corals all look just fine

The coral cat is fine and goby is fine but everything else is affacted
Another thing is I changed my salt to Kent from IO would this do anything?
What in the world is going on?

 

[Paul B]

Jacque. I don't know how many fish you have or how large but the tank does not have to be as large as your main tank. It depends on the size of your fish. If it is ich, and I think it is and it sounds like it is too advanced at this point but I would get a tank today, now would be better. You can't get the type of copper anymore that I use but get "Cuprimine" read the directions and put it in a tank with no calcium decorations. You can put in ceramic dishes, glasses or PVC pipe fittings for the fish to hide. You will need a powerhead which you can borrow from your tank. Put in the water from your main tank, keep the temperature about 81 degrees, put in the fish and hope for the best. You would also need a copper test kit because you have to put in some copper every day but you must monitor it, an overdose will kill the fish quicker than ich. Ich will not affect corals at all but never put anything in your coral tank that was in the copper treated water including the net unless you rinse it very well. Corals will retract instantly with just a very little copper. There is alot of information here about ich. Most people now use hypo which works but your fish will not last long enough for that. You can put the fish back in the main tank in about 6 weeks but read all you can about ich (which I think they have from looking at them from here)
Since there is no filter in the copper tank I would change about 25% of the water every day but you have to add the same amount of copper to the water that you add. Copper will remove the paracites from fish in a couple of days but the fish must remain in the treatment for at least ten days. Read the label on the copper. As for the quarantine tank, you should have one anyway so even if the fish die you will need it in the future to quarantine fish. If the fish you have now were in quarintine you would not be having this problem now but since you are these are my recomindations and quarintine all fish in the future.
Good luck (and as I said, it's only my opinion)
Paul

 

[Kitteness]

thanks i have had these fish for 3 years but i added a bunch a new rock and it must of spiked the tank to stress them out to get ich which must of been hidin in the sand

cool thanks for the details on net and cermanics i would of not of thought of or known that since i am in a hurry

 

[Ed Hahn]

a few oppinions....use them if you wish.

thanks i have had these fish for 3 years but i added a bunch a new rock and it must of spiked the tank to stress them out to get ich which must of been hidin in the sand

How much Rock did you add? What type of filtration do you have besides Live Rock (skimmer, etc)? Have you changed Media on filters recently( I wonder if you have build up?) Have your temps been stable? Are you lights on a timer? When you do a water change are you adding water that is premixed externally, is the water the same temperature as inside the tank, is the water the same salinity inside the tank, Are you pretreating water or using RO or RO/DI water( I worry about people adding chlorine with amonia creating Chloramine which is very toxic)?

I am gambling on water mixed inside tank, skimmer too small for tank or not adjusted properly, tank temperature swings, salinity level high,

Here is some ideas, How about asking a friend with a refractometer to check your salinity, compare your reading with your hydrometer.
Do a water change with filtered (RO or RO/DI water) premixed with power head in a bucket. The powerhead allows aireation prmixing the salt, use a heater in the bucket and test your temperture before adding. The importance of air exchange inside your premixed water is PH.
You want water same temperture as inside tank, you want water the same salinity.
The things that usually kill fish are PH swings, temperature.
Do you have a glass cover on the top of your tank? If you do remove it to allow gas exchange. Co2 affects PH. The more CO2 trapped inside your tank the lower your PH.
Just a few oppinions...I hope you get your problem solved with no losses,
good luck,
Ed

 

[steve-s]

"Big white spot, brown spots, nitrate 80 ppm after a water change, pH 7.8"

While this may still be a parasite infestation, I would lean greatly towards toxic water causing a majority of the problems. You need water changes and plenty of them. The big white spot sounds like a bacterial infection and/or Lymphocystis, the brown spots could be the result of excess methemoglobin in the blood or Vibrio, constant low pH can also cause redish splash marks outwardly and a sign of acidocis. Given the fish's jerky behaior and fast gilling, it's a pretty good bet.

As I said though, the parasite is still a good possibility so I would continue to set up the QT and be ready to transplant the fish. I would also start on some water changes for the main display in the interim. If someone is not able to look at the fish for you, better to treat the fish unneccessarily and be safe than sorry.

Be sure the water changes are large (25%+) and daily for the next week. Watch the pH to be sure it stays above 8.0 at all times, preferabley 8.3. Get the nitrate below 20 ppm but preferabley lower than 5. Only use new SW has has mixed/aerated for a day ahead or at minumum 12 hrs. Check the new salts chemistry before use to be sure pH/alk, slalinyt and temp are spot on.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Ed Hahn]

Steve,
How important do you feel a Ph monitor is to any aquarium? I monitor mine often.
Ed

 

[Paul B]

I ruled out toxic water because the corals seem to be fine. Nitrates of 80 sounds incorrect. Although it could be that high I think your corals would not look so good. As I said, hard to tell from here.
Paul

 

[steve-s]

Ed, yes pH is very important both for fish and corals. It should be monitored religiously. An accurate calibrated pH monitor or a liquid test kit, whichever is your preference. The monitors usually being more accurate.

Paul, I don't necessarily disagree with you but we do not know what corals there are, how many fish are in the system or the size/set up of the system. The coral cat seems a rather suspicious addition. I wouldn't rule out anything until all the info is known. As I said though, if in doubt, treat.

Another thing is I changed my salt to Kent from IO would this do anything?

Have you checked the alkalinity? This could be part of your issue although I suspect this a combination of problems and not just one. The new manufacturer of Kent salts has a very low alk level.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Kitteness]

okay end of the night so far to date what happening

alright its 1 am & I am just now making it back to computer. It took me over 13 hrs to accomplish this mission. I seriously was almost running laps to get all this changed, moved & set up. I hope this all makes sense and I don't ramble to much cuz I am worn out!!

I bought a eclipse 37g with bio-wheel and light set up it came together and I figured the extra money would save me time instead of contemplating over everything. It fit my extra stand perfectly thank god!

I used as much aquarium water that I could with out exposing corals and such. I would say I ended up using around 15g of new RODI water mixed with the KENT salt I already had (dang it I will switch back to IO reef crystals next) I put in one small live rock from the old tank and a couple of small purple barnacles thingys. I ended up having to spend a pretty penny on fake natural decor(I don't understand why it is so dadang spendy). The only space I had for the tank was in front doorway & by living room. So everyone can see it so I told my mom happy early mother's day since she wanted it to be pretty and I would of been fine with PVC. I am sure the fish will be much happier anyways(at least they better be). I will take a picture of the old tank and the new Qt when I get batteries for the digital and post them. I also had to completely re aquascape the 55g tank since I had to tear it apart to catch damn fish. Of course wouldn't ya know it what fish do you think I finally caught last? Of course the damsel! Why they gotta be so fast? Just so they can pick on other fish and then haul but away before they get picked back on or what?!

I used stress coat and stress zyme first and bought the amquel just in case also. I didn't want to put everything in all at once. I got enough problems already.

Well I didn't know how much or how long to do the dip for the formalin so I just followed the instructions on the back and added 5 drops to my 2.5g transport bucket. I caught the fish one by one and put them in there no longer than 2 minutes at most. Then I moved them to the QT tank I had all ready set up and dosed with the cupramine. Although the dang test kit i bought isn't going to work though i think. It was my only choice outta 3 stores and it was a fastest. It only tests up to .25 and i not sure whether it is okay and will register the cupramine correctly? I used it anyways since it was all I had before adding the fish and it tested at .25 which is the max. So what test should I get that will measure correctly?

Well no problems with the ammonia (also bought one of the little see thru ammonia tags to stick on tank just for safety sake)at all yet but the nitrites were .25 and the damn nitrates were still at 80. I started thinking how could that be if I just left almost everything behind? Then I thought this test kit is very very old. So I am going to get a different one in morning asap to double check.

Anyways the corals in the old tank will come around slowly and I will keep testing thouroughly although I think my reef lobster is going to be mad at me for awhile after having to find so many homes in one day.

The fish were so stressed when I put them in and breathing so hard that it made me pant too! I turned off the lights and put towel on one half of the tank so they felt safer(this is what i always do for my kitties and it seems to work well). They have calmed down but still stressed of course. Although the sickest one was the little clown and he seems to be doing a bit better already(knock on wood).

I also lowered the salinity from 1.023/24 to 1.022 at least that is what the plastic hydrometer says for now until i find something better to measure with.

I bought a new therometer but I can't get the temp to stabilize yet hopefully by tomorrow it will. Its a 150w stealth I read the package and it said use the 150w so i hope its right.

What an ordeal!!! And it isn't over yet I know. Well the worst thing that happened is that I broke a 50w therometer which is not bad so far well I guess I did brake the door off the tank but it was really pissing me off and getting in the way.

I always try to find any positives I can from negative things and this one is at least this happened before I started running the 210g (now I can QT all fish before the move into the 210g) and it will get me to get it set up a lot quicker cuz i really don't want to have to move fish back to 55g to then have to move them to the 210g. I will be leaving everything fishless for at least 8 weeks I don't wanna play any more games with ich!

K I am off to bed thanks for all the help and the more help to come I know I am not the first one to do this and you have all repeated it many times but the help is awesome! Hope this all made sense but at least maybe someone will read this and think okay I better set up QT before this happens to me too(even if its just 1 person)!

 

[Paul B]

Jacque, hope you slept OK. Don't forget, this is a hobby. They are fish. We (or I) eat them every day. Don't have a heart attack if some of them die. You are doing everything you can.
Having said that, we are going on assumption because we can't see the fish but I think you are doing the right thing. They definately would have died without treatment, now maybe they will not.

Copper should be .3 for ten days. at .5 you will probably kill the fish and below .25 you may not kill all the paracites. At any level of copper the paracites will be stressed and if you did not use the proper amount of copper you will see more paracites in about 6 days, in which case you will have to start all over again. At seven days the paracites will start to reproduce but the copper will prevent that. The fish can remain in the copper longer but if you monitor it correctly they will be fine in 10 days. If you see the fish laying on the bottom of breathing very slow, that is a sign of copper toxicity from an overdose. You really need a good test kit.
Good luck.
Paul

 

[steve-s]

I used stress coat and stress zyme first and bought the amquel

Stop using the ammonia binding agents. In all honesty, I would run some carbon, do some water changes and start again. You will run a large risk of copper poisoning . The ammonia binders break the amine bonds of Cupramine to it's basic ionic form which is about 10x stronger.

Cupramine should be at a level of 0.5 ppm for 2-3 weeks, lower than 0.4 will most likely not be effective. The dosage should be done in two stages over 48 hrs. What brand of test kit did you get to measure the copper? How much Cupramine did you add the first time?

Also, do not lower the salinity any further. Where it is now is of no concern but if the salinity is lowered too far, you risk the copper becoming unstable. Do not do any further formalin dips, they will not help and a 2 min duration won't accomplish anything.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Just an add on here, completely forgot about the shark (if Atelomycterus marmoratus?), it should not be treated with the rest of the fish. They are extremely sensitive to copper treatments and cannot be grouped with the rest. More commonly the shark will not be affected by this parasite but all things being equal, they should still be treated as suspect. I would seriously consider setting up a seperate QT system just for it and monitoring it instead.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Paul B]

Steve is correct on the Amquel. Read the directions on the Cuprimine as to the dosage. As I said, I don't use Cuprimine I use something stronger but it will tell you on the bottle the dosage. And I would also not use the formalin.
Let us know how they are doing.
Paul

 

[Kitteness]

My reef tank is a 55g tha has been set up for about 3 years now. The last fish I added was the mandrin and that was months ago. I don't keep a cover on the top of the tank so heat can get out from the fan. I keep the vho lights on a timer. I do not run a skimmer on the tank. I was keeping the tank at 80 and the salinity at 1.025/26 according to plastic hydrometer (i know i really need a refractometer i working on gettting one this week) I have a powerhead and heaters in the RODI garbage can also. I always mix my water in the same clean buckets with power head to mix the salt everytime. Match up temp,salinity so forth to match the tank before putting it in. The RODI is usually aged except for this last time cuz I was in a hurry to save fish.

I have a 40g refugium under the tank with lots of rubble rock. I keep the light on 24hrs. I have been adding live rubble rock in the last few months to get more established for the move up to the 100g sump for the 210g tank. My whole sump is filled with rock and chaeto, caulerpra, fern and saw blade. There is 2 powerhead in it to keep things moving and coouple sponges to collect debris and I put a nano filter in it cuz it was the only dang thing that i could get in there. I've got no clearance above sump.

The ammonia is fine but this is first time I have fed. Fish are doing better and they are all eating(I only put a little mysis and seaweed) They are swimming around a bit more but still scared when anyone comes up to the tank but me. They never have had to meet other people so they confused who keeps looking and walkin by. my parents are excited for the future fish to come thru they said it will be like the fish store the fish will keep changing. The ammonia is fine but this is first time I have fed. I going to have to get different test kit for couple things.

Okay my heater is not working right or something? I can't get my temp to stabilize. I bout a 150w marine land stealth. It's kind of an irritating heater though. I have no idea if it is on or not cuz there is no light so i have to stick my hand in and feel it. The temp keeps going up too high. I have it set at 79 but that not what my digital temp says it is fluctuating between 25-27.6 Celsius. Do I not have enough watts or its crappy heater or what?

Also what kind of copper test kit do I get to measure with the cupramine?

Did I do the formaldyhyde dip right? I wanna know what I did right and wrong so I'm informed when the next round comes.

How should I keep dosing the stress coat and stress zyme? Just follow the instructions on the bottle?

Okay so the one piece of rock i put in has 2 dang aptasia on it & small anenome. They are not supposed to be there I would of thought they would of died? Man aptasia is a nusiance! This is the rock the clowns have taken to so what should I do? Take out and let dry? I can't stick it back in to hte other tank now that is treated even though stuff alive on it right?

Is there anything that cleans that can go in the QT tank?

So I will stop using stress zyme and I never used the amquel in the QT tank I used it in the reef tank since I had to tear it all apart. But should I stop the stress coat in QT also?

If things test fine should I not mess with it until the 48 hour point when I am supposed to put more cupramine in? I followed the directions to a T. I even used my own sterile syringe for the measurements. The instructions said to take all carbon out.

My test kit that i have is fastest and it is a powder mix that only reads up to
.25

Okay you lost me on the shark thing were you talking about the coral cat? I have no room left for another tank. He seems to be doing just fine so far. He is the hardiest fish I have ever had. I really like him he is a cool fish! So much personality, just like the goby he keeps making new homes and cleaning.

 

[Kitteness]

I swear someone on this thread to use the formalin. How are u supposed to do a dip then?

 

[steve-s]

You cannot use Stresscoat, stress zyme or Amquel. Nothing of the kind can be used. Your only combatant for ammonia is going to be water changes, there's no other option.

The test kit you have will work fine. Since it only reads upto 0.25, dilute the sample from the tank by 50% using RO/DI water. Fill the test vial ½ way with the RO/DI and fill up the rest with the QT water. Give it a little shake to mix and then perform the test as normal. Multiply your results by a factor of 2.

Also, remove the rock!!

Okay you lost me on the shark thing were you talking about the coral cat? I have no room left for another tank. He seems to be doing just fine so far. He is the hardiest fish I have ever had. I really like him he is a cool fish!

If you continue to treat with copper while the shark is in there, you risk not having it anymore. They will do somewhat okay with low levels of Cupramine but the level you need to treat the other fish will most likely kill it. That is, going on the assumption this is Cryptocaryon.

I swear someone on this thread to use the formalin. How are u supposed to do a dip then?

You don't

Cheers
Steve

 

[jsmkmavity]

just wanted to say glad to hear the fish are eating, and hope they make it. the cat and mandarin dont have scales they have slime coats. dont treat them with the copper. most of them arent affected by the type of diseases you are battling and as long as ammonia or other toxic substance isnt in the main tank they can stay in there. hope the mandarin does ok. he was huge when i saw him and very pretty colors! hope things get straightened out. add rock SLOWLY in the future to avoid throwing the system out of balance. i dont know if this had any effect on your current situation just offering advice. also you might let the rock soak in the qt tank when you are done treating the fish and test the water for copper and other stuff after a couple days just to make sure you didnt get anything from your rock.

 

[steve-s]

Actually sharks are fairly impervious to crypt but they are by no means immmune. If left in an infested system, there is a chance it could happen, albeit very very remote. If removed to it's own QT, it can be monitored for the necessary time frame and dealt with if needed. The mardarine definately isn't immune, they simpley have a much higher immunity/protection. They can in time be affected by protozoan parasites the same as any other fish. Leaving it in an infested tank is offering the parasite a means to continue it's life cycle.

As for the rock in the QT, it shouldn't be trusted. Toss it. :razz:

Cheers
Steve