I need immediate help in everett my fish are dying!

[Kitteness]

The fish have spots AGAIN! My QT tank is a bit cloudy. And the pH is low. I changed 5g last night. I'm thinking it is the kent salt i switched to so i am gonna get different salt. I never had any of these problems when using different salt. I did the second dose of cupramine today. But the catfish is still in there.

okay out the rock goes but i can't set up another tank for the catfish unless its like a itsy bitsy one like 2 to 10g. So what should I do? a small tank? or put him back in the 55g?

I am seriously running out of room. If i didn't have a 210g sitting in the middle of my room then I would have the space but somehow I gotta get the 210 moved over about 10 ft and so far no one has been able to move it at all. It was a project to get it where it is. The tank is all really thick glass and the stand and hood are really heavy also.

Anyways the mandrin didn't make it unfortunetly.

I've been told to use the amquel if there is a spike in the ammonia. So I take it don't do it just change lots of water.

Well to the store i go to get more salt. I just want to get a different test kit that goes higher which one should i get?

 

[Kitteness]

I just found these meds on ebay & it says some are now taken off the shelf& he selling till shelf empty
Quines
Quinsulex
cuprex
cuprex II
Marex
Are any of these the one that you said are stronger and were taken of the shelves that i could purchase for my QT tank?

 

[Paul B]

I don't believe you need any of those meds. Just the copper you have. If you have the correct dose of copper in there there will not be any paracites in a week. Don't put the catfish or any fish in your main tank, if you do you will have to start all over again. That tank has to stay fish free for a while. The catfish could be (and probably is )carrying paracites
I know it is a pain but there is really no other way with the amount of paracites that I "think" your fish are carrying. The other spots on your fish are secondary infections that the fish get from scratching from the paracites. This is still hard without seeing the fish.
Don't use the Amquel. Just change some water but add the proper amount of copper to the make up water. Did the fish stop scratching, or jerking or breathing hard?
Paul

 

[Kitteness]

I have no idea why but the fish have never not once scratched. Just the slap stick, twitching, white spots. The spots that are on the clown fish are not white they are a brownish color. I am assuming this velvet then? The spots on the foxface are white? Good lord do I have 2 different infections going on here? Will the cupramine treat everything?

I am gonna get batteries today so I can post some darn pictures!

 

[steve-s]

I am gonna get batteries today so I can post some darn pictures!

I think that's the best thing that will help ID your issue. It may not be conclusive depending on the clarity of the pics but worth a try.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Paul B]

Good Idea. Get some pics.
Paul

 

[Kitteness]

I'm confused!

Okay so i have done what i can and the little clown and the foxface looklike they been doused with salt. I tested water& i did 15g change and matched everything exactly to the tank.
My test results were: (i'm comparing the old&new kits to see differences)
Nirite 0ppm(only kit)
Nitrate 20ppm(old kit) 2.5ppm(hagen new kit)
Ammonia .3ppm(hagen new kit)
pH before h2o change was 8.0 after it was 8.2(different salt)
Alk normal
Copper (new hagen kit) was .1ppm before h2o change then i added 3mL with the 15g change & it rised to .2ppm and tested 2 or 3 hours later and it was still at .2ppm so I added another 1mL (i don't know how fast allowed to raise the copper safely?)

The directions on the cupramine bottle are usless! The test kit told me more than the bottle so if someone could fill me in on why the Cupramine says it wants .5ppm (can go as high as .8ppm) as result for 14 days and the test kit says it wants .3ppm maintained for 10 days & they are both using Cu+2(does it make a difference if the 2 is in front of the + or behind? I can't remember all the chemistry i learned Can someone help me understand all this? Pretty please! I am a great learner!

So if all the parameters are testing fine what in the world are the fish sick for? (I realize it takes time but is it downhill then uphill then downhil then uphill again or what? I just don't understand Foxface gets spots then loses them then gets them again? Little male gold stripe maroon clown just keeps getting more.

I am frustrated and confused someone please help straighten me out!

 

[steve-s]

The fish aren't going to get better until the copper concentration is correct and remains stable. You need a copper level of minimum 0.4ppm upto 0.5 ppm, anything less will not be effective. Once the copper is correct, the fish must remain at this level for at least 14 days straight. If after the first 4-5 days you do not see a marked improvement, either the copper has been maintained too low, or this is not the parasite(s) you think it is.

When initially dosing Cupramine, the copper is introduced in two stages. 1 ml for every 10.5 gal of water volume and then repeated once only another 48 hrs later. This can often mislead people but the total dosage is 2 ml per 10.5 gal. When you removed 15 gal for the water change, you may have actually not had the correct level to being with, hence the low level (and frustration?) now.

The easiest way to correct this now would be add ½ ml of the Cupramine and test to see the gain. Keep repeating the dose in the lower increment and test after each addition until you reach at least 0.4 ppm but preferabley 0.5 ppm.

Also verify that the test kit reads for the type of copper you have (verify the brand/type) and the max copper level it can measure. I was not aware that Hagen made a copper kit and their website does not list any info about the fact they have one? If the kit only goes to 0.2 ppm, you will need to dilute your sample water with RO/DI.
http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/sub_category.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=124

When you do your water changes, dose the new SW being used instead of diluting the QT and adding more copper. Use a bucket that will be for the QT only and mark it on the outside in big black felt pen "QT ONLY - Copper". The dose is 4 drops per gallon so if the pail is say 4 gal, you add 16 drops of the Cupramine. Test and verify before you use it to be sure. This method will eliminate the guess work of maintaining the copper concentration during needed water changes.

Make sure none of the apparatus in the QT has carbon (often in HOB filter pads), sand, rock, Uv or ozone. All of these can interfere with maintaining copper level.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Kitteness]

okay i am finally up to .4ppm and sorry the test kit is red sea. It only goes up to .4 though. Now I have to figure out the diluting thing which i am still not understanding.

The copper info helps a lot! I was totally having to guess and now i can do it accurately.

The fish are swimming around and eating the little i give them. Foxface has some white spots still and the places where they were are brown so they must be healing spots. The clown still looks bad. Poor litle guy!

Well I made my salt water ro di water in my huge garbage can for storage of water. so the water will no be aged a bit. So I will do a change when i get home after work at 3AM and then figure out the copper replacement per your directions.

The one thing that bothers me is the water is cloudy no matter what i do? I bought in tank UV 9w sterilizer but ae saying not to use one? How come lots of people have them on their QT tanks that I have talked to on reef central. Although I can not recall if they were using copper at the same time so that might make the difference hunh

 

[barrierreefcf]

Just saw the thread and thought I'd add my 2 cents. As a manager at one of the LF's my duties include disease treatment. Over the years we used copper with mixed results. Difficulties in diagnosing which parasite(s) was the problem and the fact that copper didn't eliminate all types and was hard to keep at the right concentration (let alone test for accurately) led us to seek out better treatment options. A combination of hyposalinity (1.010) and formalin treatments (not quick baths) proved the best option. The combination works against black ich, ich, velvet, and gill flukes. Be aware that sometimes brown patches with slightly raised scales is often a symptom of black ich (I realize I should take the time to look up the latin names of these diseases to be more accurate but if you need more specifics PM me). Usually 3-5 doses of 37% formaldehyde at 1 milliliter (ml) per 10 gallons, or 2 drops per gallon plus 20-30 days in hyposalinity completely cures any of these problems. Remember formalin is an oxygen binder and you need to crank up an airstone. It will kill inverts as well. Different manufacturers suggest different dosing regimines of the above concentration either daily or every 48 hours. Formalin can be removed with carbon but also naturally escapes the water as a gas within 24-48 hours after dosing. Here is a link to more info on formalin. Not trying to step on toes...just adding my experiences
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_VM061

 

[steve-s]

Your playing with fire mixing hyposalinity and formalin together long term. Hyposalinity on it's own will work very well when target specifically for C. irritans. With Paravortex, simple temp/pH adjusted FW dips will usually do the trick nicely. If a more severe problem, formalin dips outside the QT work best. Copper works if used properly and is far more effective with crypt and A. ocellatum than formalin. Also, sharks (as with copper) should never be subjected to hyposaline conditions.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

okay i am finally up to .4ppm and sorry the test kit is red sea. It only goes up to .4 though. Now I have to figure out the diluting thing which i am still not understanding.

The easiest way to do this is ½ fill the copper test vial with RO/DI water. Then take a sample from the QT water and fill the vial the rest of the way. Cap the vial and give it a good swirl, do not shake. Uncap and perform the test as normal. Once you get the appropriate number correlation to the color, multiply that number result by two and you'll have your reading.

The one thing that bothers me is the water is cloudy no matter what i do?

Could be a bacterial bloom or sediment in the water column. If a yellowish tinge, could be organics build up. Since you cannot use filtering products that would normally help, water changes are your best solution. Be sure you are monitoring ammonia and nitrite several times a day.

You did not add formalin did you?

I bought in tank UV 9w sterilizer but ae saying not to use one? How come lots of people have them on their QT tanks that I have talked to on reef central. Although I can not recall if they were using copper at the same time so that might make the difference hunh

UV's render copper compounds (chelates/amine) to their basic form and you'll end up with an immediate spike in the copper level which would be lethal.

Cheers
Steve

 

[barrierreefcf]

Steve,
Why do you say we are playing with fire by using "hypo and formalin long-term". I am talking about using formalin for 3-6 days and hypo for 20-30 which is generally thought of as the time needed to guarantee a cure and break the parasite life cycle. Formalin is safe in both fresh and saltwater so I am confused. Everything I have read says copper is harder on fish than formalin. Please explain? I'm also confused as to why we are still talking about sharks. He has a coral catfish not Atelomycterus marmoratus. If he did it would be eating his smaller fish and knocking over corals.

 

[barrierreefcf]

Kitteness,
I read through the entire RC thread. Do not worry about the coral cat and copper. You have the little black fish with white stripes (Plotosus lineatus) right? Its fine in copper and is not a shark. The copper will work if you can keep the concentration up and it is only ich or velvet that you are battling. It will take longer than formalin but eventually it will work.

 

[steve-s]

Steve,
Why do you say we are playing with fire by using "hypo and formalin long-term". I am talking about using formalin for 3-6 days and hypo for 20-30 which is generally thought of as the time needed to guarantee a cure and break the parasite life cycle. Formalin is safe in both fresh and saltwater so I am confused. Everything I have read says copper is harder on fish than formalin. Please explain?

Formalin becomes more toxic in lower pH environments. If during hyposaliniy, the pH falls off which it has a habit of doing it becomes that much more toxic. Formalin is actually just as poisonous as most copper products out there, none as safe as Cupramine though. If hyposalinity is being done correctly (14 ppt for at least 4 weeks past the last spot seen on the fish), combined therapies are not needed nor are they recommended since you gain little and risk much.

I'm also confused as to why we are still talking about sharks. He has a coral catfish not Atelomycterus marmoratus. If he did it would be eating his smaller fish and knocking over corals.

I rarely if ever read at RC and I don't mind read

I asked for clarification on the species a ways back, got no answer. Coral cat and coral catfish are two different things...

Cheers
Steve

 

[Paul B]

This is getting confusing. We (or I) kind of determined that we were dealing with a paracite. We (or I) also determined that it's hard to tell without a more detailed description or pictures. I recommended copper because I have used it for 40 years with no problem. We agreed to use copper which will kill the paracites guaranteed If you keep it at the proper level. You do not need hypo, formalin, Amquil or anything else. Those fish are already stressed. Copper by itself is safe and 99% of any fish you buy is in the store in copper as it was in the wholesaler's tank. Just keep the dosage at whatever it says on the Cuprimine bottle or whatever other kind of copper you are using. It will clear the fish of any paracites in a few days.
As for the cloudy water the copper interferes with the bacteria's ability to process wastes so you must feed very little and remove any food. You may have to make large water changes because you have no real filtering capacity in there.
Good luck.
Paul

 

[steve-s]

This is getting confusing.

Too true. Copper was recommended and as far as I know still in use. I was not encouraging any switch in procedure, rather answering what I thought to be misinformation.

If the "off topic" discussion continues, I will split if off to a new discussion. Sorry for the sidetrack Kitteness. My bad!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Kitteness]

It's cool I'm learning new stuff either way. Okay so the fish is a coral catfish black with white stripes. Sorry for some reason I thought i said that guess not. He is so helpful in the QT tank he just crusies around constantly picking up anything to eat. And he loves to get into the tiniest places he just wiggles like a worm until he gets thru. I don't know I think he is so cool!

I am still using the cupramine and only the cupramine. Nothing else no stress coat, no stress zyme and no amquel. I only used the formailn for the dip on transfer from one tank to the other. I have no idea if it helped or not. Today the fish look better but the little clown still has the most spots.

I have my salinity at 1.020/21 should I keep it there or lower it still?

Could you explain to me the UV sterilizer thing? So if I wasn't using copper then I could use the sterilizer is what your saying? So at the end of the copper treatment could I use the sterilizer before I put the fish back into tank? Also I was wondering if I should hook up the UV unit in the 55g with no fish to help rid the ich?

I changed another 15g at 5 in the morning before i went to bed. Fish weren't to thrilled but it was the only time I could do it. I am going to test the tank again with all the new test kits. To see if I should do another water change today or wait till tomorrow. I just get scared not changing water it seems like when I don't change any water for a day the fish get really sick again.

Well I finally got batteries for the digital camera and took lots of pictures and then wouldn't ya know it I can't find the cord to hook it to the computer. So I'm working on the pictures still. Sorry! I was so excited too!

 

[Paul B]

I use an ozonizer or you could use a UV sterilizer, either way it will do little to eliminate ich. It may kill the paracites that go through it but even if one paracite survives you will probably get another bout of it. Many of the paracites will be at the bottom happily avoiding the sterilizer.
Keep the salinity as it is.
Paul

 

[barrierreefcf]

Steve,
I think you misunderstood my tone or reason for adding to this thread. I'm not arguing the benefit of copper, nor trying to prove anyone wrong, or debate in general. Copper has been the accepted method for treating most parasites for as long as I can remember. Its just that I could see kitteness was struggling with copper application, just like many first timers do, and I thought I would add a method that has proven itself to be the most effective and simple to use, for our business over the past 15 years. This is in the store, with customers, and outside with over 50 service accounts. Thats a lot of experience. When you said we were playing with fire I genuinely wondered why and hoped you could provide more info. You are correct about the ph and formalin becoming more toxic but there is no reason ph cannot be maintained for the short duration the formalin is needed. I though maybe there was something I did not know that you could help with. Thats the only reason I responded. I agree that at this point the copper treatment should be maintained. I was just adding further info to the thread(that is the point after all...right?). Like I said originally, not trying to step on toes. I'll bow out at this point
Good luck Jacque!