in-line skimmer? anyone done this?

[reefbaby]

Hi! I've read quite a bit now on skimming and how to best optimize the amount of protein that you can pull out of the water, but I have a couple of questions...

Have any of you ever plumbed your overflow directly into your skimmer, with all of the water going first through the skimmer before entering the sump?

If I were aiming for about 4000lph through the sump, is this too much strain on the skimmer??

AND

I'm a bit confused the durso standpipes in the overflows. I understand that their main purpose is to reduce the noise of the water coursing down the overflow and into the sump, but doesn't the volume of water in the overflow with a standpipe cause the proteins to get all mixed up again? Is the act of skimming off the top surface of the water then made inefficent?

Am I thinking backwards here?? Sorry if the questions are stupid, I know NOTHING about plumbing, but am trying to learn...

Thanks in advance!

 

[Krish]

Sorry if the questions are stupid, I know NOTHING about plumbing, but am trying to learn...

LOL...Don't feel stupid. No question here is stupid. We only have stupid people like me(LOL JK) Just ask away until your heart is content...

Have any of you ever plumbed your overflow directly into your skimmer, with all of the water going first through the skimmer before entering the sump?

About plumbing an overflow directly into your skimmer, I had the same question a while back, but not sure if I found the answer( see what I mean about being stupid LOL). Theoretically, I would think that would make your skimmer even more efficient as it will be getting raw tank water, but I guess there isn't much difference in doing that than having the feed pump for your skimmer sitting in the same chamber of the sump where the water enters from the tank. I guess someone else will have to answer that one...

If I were aiming for about 4000lph through the sump, is this too much strain on the skimmer??

About 4000lph putting too much strain on the skimmer would depend on the skimmers design. I know skimmers like mine (AquaC EV series) they recommend no very much flow at all (only 500gph) On the otherhand, some skimmers like the reefdevil (i think it is that one) relies on high flow rates.

I'm a bit confused the durso standpipes in the overflows. I understand that their main purpose is to reduce the noise of the water coursing down the overflow and into the sump, but doesn't the volume of water in the overflow with a standpipe cause the proteins to get all mixed up again? Is the act of skimming off the top surface of the water then made inefficent?

I've never used a dorso stand pipe so I couldn't really say. Are you referring to surface skimming or protein skimming here?

 

[pda]

I plumbed my skimmer straight from my drain, however, I included a T and a ball valve off of the drain pipe so I could control the flow through the skimmer. The T sends the remainder of the drain water into the sump. Works like a champ. I keep my flow into the skimmer very slow (about 100 gph or so) and use a pump to recirculate the water inside the skimmer. It produces much better skimmate and very adjustable flow control.
Also, I am using a Durso type standpipe with that setup.

 

[mojoreef]

Yea it really depends on the size of the skimmer. With protien skimming your looking for good contact time so putting the water through to fast will reduce that amount. Sounds like PDA has a good fix to adjust that problem.

On the stand pipes what they do basically is to raise the water in the overflow using the pipe itself. With the water raised the tank water coming into the overflow has less of a distance to fall, and thus less noise when doing so.


Mike

 

[Haole]

Actually this is how I have my current setup. I have a siphon overflow that feeds my skimmer directly. I use to have it plumbed directly to the skimmer, but recently I’ve learned from the “skimming 101” thread that’s stickied at the top of this forum that I was running too much flow through my skimmer. I think this is what you will run into also if you decide to do it that way. Like what was previously said... some skimmer designs are more efficient with a slower flow going through them. I’ve since then added a Tee fitting to divert some of the flow and then with ball valves I’m able to regulate the amount of flow that the skimmer receives. I began to notice the skimmate being produced get much thicker and a little darker. I should also mention the fact that I changed the skimmer from a venturi to an air driven one because I’m sure this also has some merit to the improved quality of skimmate. I’m able to supply the skimmer with a much finer size bubble with an air stone than with the venturi that came with my locally made skimmer. Now I’ve added a much larger Tee fitting before the valves to create a sort of pool to slow the cascading water coming from the overflow and allow the larger bubbles to burst before entering the skimmer. Doing this has made the surface of water inside the skimmer much less turbulent when just water is flowing through it with no air being used, along with the overall decreased flow. There is a vent at the top of the larger Tee to allow the incoming water another way of exit if one or both valves get clogged for some reason. Plus I really don’t have that strong of a flow going through my sump to begin with.
Here’s a crude drawing I made up of it.

I'm a bit confused the durso standpipes in the overflows. I understand that their main purpose is to reduce the noise of the water coursing down the overflow and into the sump, but doesn't the volume of water in the overflow with a standpipe cause the proteins to get all mixed up again? Is the act of skimming off the top surface of the water then made inefficent?

This is a great question that I’d like to know as well. I hope Anthony replies, I’d like to see his opinion on this. I think this is something that I’m creating as well with the Tee’s and valves, inevitably mixing the surface active ingredients back into the water.

Here’s my thought’s.....
I recall Anthony recommending repeatedly (elsewhere) to place your protein skimmer in such a way that it receives nothing but water that’s been skimmed off the surface of the main tank. Whether it be just placing the pump that feeds the skimmer with water, or placing the entire skimmer in as small a vessel/holding container as possible that’s being fed water directly from the surface of the main tank to ensure a constant source of surface-actent (sp?) laden water. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the water from the main tank that’s spilling into this holding container being mixed up as well before it enters the protein skimmer? So in a sense, I’m still doing the same thing.... Right?

Oh and btw, Welcome to Reeffrontiers, Christi!

 

[BeanAnimal]

major... the function of a durso or similar setup reduces the noise by preventing the open end from sucking in air. The design of dursos, stockmans, and similar mods use a downturned elbow or similar device to force the input of the standpipe below the operating level of the overflow box. Air is then introduced at the crest of the weir formed by the downturned elbow and standpipe. The prevents the slurping and flushing that an open standpipe undergoes if it is pushed anywhere near it's capacity.

You may already know all of this and just be commenting on a "standpipe" in general. If that is the case, then I will crawl back under my rock.

 

[thegrimreefer]

I gravity feed my skimmer directly from my overflow box. 3/4" to the skimmer, 1.5" "drain".
It's working great for me so far. I've not yet bothered to place an inline valve to slow the flow, but the skimmer's fairly large, about 30" tall, 12" diameter.

here's a pic

Looks like it's time to take some new pictures.

Ron

 

[Haole]

Welcome to RF, Ron!
I think I’ve seen pictures of your set up elsewhere before. If I’m not mistaken, you have a considerably narrow (front to back - not lengthwise) internal horizontal overflow.... That sure looks sweet! Nice job!
Definitely update us with some more pic’s!

 

[blueberry]

well i dont have an overflow so im going with the clip ons but with my dads he has the skimmer in the sump where the pipes come out.oh and if anyone has an extra skimmer thats a clip on could they send it to me.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

in a perfect world (consult on a new installation with a wealthy sponsor and a blank check ) I do like the direct feed of raw water to a skimmer best. But in the real world/practical applications for home aquariums, I like the idea of having some sort of small skimmer basin just large enogh to capture the skimmer feed pump (or whle skimmer footprint if needed) as a sensible compromise. This frees less familiar aquarists from making serious mistakes (read: flood) from misadjustments of a direct feed line. It also gives you greater ease to remove the skimmer and pumps/parts quarterly (like we all do, right? ahem! ) for a thorough cleaning (run the unit in the tunb or a bucket with some strong vinegar). All of this with little compromise to raw water quality for not having a direct feed. It gets my vote for many home installations.

As for the specific query about 4000 lph being too much or not, indeed it is as stated (pending skimmer model/size), but generally speaking it is way more than you need for typical tanks sizes and skimmer models.

kindly, Anthony

 

[reefbaby]

Thanks for all the responses.

Ron (thegrimreefer) - from your picture, I don't really understand the plumbing. Is the picture from the outside and back of the aquarium? What are the two different outlets? Does the hole in the glass mean that your overflow comes in from that level? Sorry....since I'm a newbie at plumbing, I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what's what.

Rob (Haole) - thanks for the great diagram! Does the first diversion of flow (before the skimmer) go into the sump? Does the skimmer sit in the sump as well and pull water out of there or only the water that's fed in directly from the overflow? This sounds like a good way to have both ways incorporated.

However, as Anthony says

This frees less familiar aquarists from making serious mistakes (read: flood) from misadjustments of a direct feed line. It also gives you greater ease to remove the skimmer and pumps/parts quarterly (like we all do, right? ahem! ) for a thorough cleaning

- it's probably not a bad safety mechanism to have it sitting in a chamber in the sump, but with a reduced water volume.

Anthony - the tank is 1600liters, so I think I need to have the 4000lph flow through the sump, right? So, how do I best optimize the portion of water that goes through the skimmer vs the portion that continues on through the sump and bypasses the skimmer? I've seen that some skimmers, such as Bubble King, have the potential to push that much volume through the skimmers, but they're incredibly expensive compared to other models, even Deltec. Should I just not worry about how much water throughput I get in the skimmer? I've read a lot of your threads about skimming and like your idea about the use of two skimmers that can run in parallel, but can be cleaned alternatingly (is that a word?). Does this mean that the sum of the two skimmers power and throughput should be sufficient for the tank size or should each skimmer be able to handle the full-size tank?

Also...I have a question about the overflow. My husband thinks the idea of having a durso standpipe coming up from the middle of the aquarium will be quite ugly - I agree - although I think over time the calcerous algae will have covered it up. At any rate, what do you think about the idea of filling the overflow chamber up with smaller pieces of live rock and letting the water cascade down over these? Alternatively, we could cover up the four sides of the overflow with reef ceramic (or riffkeramik - there are some German companies that make this stuff for reef tanks). What's your take on this? I'll try to take some pictures this weekend to better describe how the new system will be.

Thanks tons!!
Best regards,
Christi

 

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Christi

Despite the size of this or any aquarium... there really is no minimum required flow. It really all depends on practical needs or issues. High flow will be too noisy... slow flow will turn the sump into a settling chamber for solids. That's good if you regularly siphon the sedimentst (weekly or better) or rather bad if you ignore it (organics accumulating rather than being kept in suspension for use by filter feeders or export by the skimmer).

As for skimmers or anything else in your sump (refugiums, reactors), do not let such components dictate the way you plumb your sump. For safety (as per above) I really like the idea ot treating them independantly in the sense that you should be able to take them offline for any reason (cleaning, service, upgarde) and not affect the running of the sump-display loop path.

That said, you can steal water from overflow drains to minimize pump/power use as in the discussion here about catching raw overflow water. But in your case, the solution is quite easy. Yes... you can run 4000 lph through the sump with a first stage catch basin compartment (sealed divider in sump or simply a bucket or the like in or next to the sump to catch raw overflow water inline. Simply be sure its drilled with the same size/numer of bulkeads as the display above to make sure the flow is uninterrupted. Keep it small and tight too to concentrate the water for skimmer use.

indeed... I always like two skimmers better than one for the reason stated in your post above. It's my advice here as well.

As for skimmers... brands like Bubble King and Deltect are top shelf quality and top shelf performers... but poor values IMO. You can get any of a number of other skimmers to perform nearly as well, better or good enough for a fraction of the price and no compromise to water quality on this point. If value for price purchased is not a strong influence here... you cannot go wrong with a Deltec of Bubbleking IMO.

Lastly... your overflow, I agree - the vertical tower is an awful idea. An eyesore, noisy and generally poor means of collecting surface water for optimal skimming. Do see my thread(s) on horizontal overflows in the list of links under my "fav links..." sticky thread atop this forum.

If I understand correctly too... the tower if used will be better empty. Do not fill it with live rock or rubble. It will handicap skimmer performance downstream and may well contribute unecessarily as a nitrate factopry alal wet/dry trickle filter style.

 

[Haole]

Does the first diversion of flow (before the skimmer) go into the sump? Does the skimmer sit in the sump as well and pull water out of there or only the water that's fed in directly from the overflow?

Yes, everything is sitting in the sump, and the skimmer only receives water from the overflow. I have tried the catch basin with a feed pump going to the skimmer like Anthony suggests, but IMO/IME the results seem to be the same with the way I have it now. Plus I have one less pump to maintain.
Also, I do have disconnect unions incorporated in this set up in order to take out the skimmer for cleanings without dismantling all the plumbing. I didn’t take the time to draw them into my previous crude drawing.
Granted that the way my set up is now does work, it does involve a bit of a balancing act between all of the valves, and there’s quite a bit of plumbing needed to pull this off. Anthony’s suggested method is much, much easier to set up for those who are plumbingly challenged!

 

[bc_slc]

Haole. Diagrams were great. The escape chamber up and over the top of the inlet feed is a great safety if the pressure in the inlet prior to the "T" gets too high. Very smart.

 

[thegrimreefer]

Thanks for the welcome.
My goal for the in-wall 125 display was to have unobtrusive overflows that can handle a lot of flow, do a great job of surface skimming, and leave me some room for a "hang on" closed loop.

I don't know what the rules are here about posting links to other forums, but if I'm in violation, please edit this link to my overflow description.

Ron

Welcome to RF, Ron!
I think I’ve seen pictures of your set up elsewhere before. If I’m not mistaken, you have a considerably narrow (front to back - not lengthwise) internal horizontal overflow.... That sure looks sweet! Nice job!
Definitely update us with some more pic’s!

 

[thegrimreefer]

Thanks for all the responses.

Ron (thegrimreefer) - from your picture, I don't really understand the plumbing. Is the picture from the outside and back of the aquarium? What are the two different outlets? Does the hole in the glass mean that your overflow comes in from that level? Sorry....since I'm a newbie at plumbing, I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what's what.

The larger outlet, going down through the bottom of the box, is the standard 1.5" "drain" to the sump. Most of the water goes through there (and through it's corresponding drain at the other end of the tank).

The outlet that comes out of the side of the box, with the elbow attached, is a .75" line that runs to feed my protein skimmer. It just gravity feeds /drains down into the skimmer via some .75" ID flexible vinyl tubing.

I run far more flow through the tank than I could pass through the skimmer alone, so the flow is basically split there at the overflow box.

See the link in my previous post for pics about how this all hangs together in my system, though there are no pics of the actual line to the skimmer hooked up. Time to take some new pics.

The guy who I convinced to make it for me is calling it a "Burns overflow". Partly 'cuz that's my name, and partly... for a different reason dealing with what he had to go through to build it.

Ron

 

[Ed Hahn]

Welcome TheGrimreefer

Thanks for the welcome.
My goal for the in-wall 125 display was to have unobtrusive overflows that can handle a lot of flow, do a great job of surface skimming, and leave me some room for a "hang on" closed loop.

I don't know what the rules are here about posting links to other forums, but if I'm in violation, please edit this link to my overflow description.

Ron

Welcome to Reef Frontiers Grim Reefer. I enjoyed reading your post elsewhere.
I am glad your here. Reef Frontiers is a very positive environment. I do not think there is any rules about posting as long as its good clean and positive.

 

[reefbaby]

GrimReefer - thanks for the link. It was very informative. I love the idea of a horizontal overflow...it looks clean, appears super effective and avoids the look of piping down in the middle of the tank.

Anthony - yes, I LOVE the idea of a horizontal overflow. I had read the threads and when we ordered our tank, I guess I wasn't confident enough in my knowledge at the time to be persistent about having them make a horizontal overflow for me. So, now I'm stuck with an internal overflow.
I don't know if you can see the overflow from this picture or not, but:

So, if I understand you correctly - you wouldn't use a durso piping because of the looks and live rock bits are also a bad idea. Should I just bit the bullet and let the water cascade down? We are building the room around the tank, so maybe noise won't be a factor. But, I was also concerned, after reading your threads on skimming, that if the water is cascading down, it would just stir up the proteins all over again? Sorry....I'm a newbie at this....

Also...so sorry to bother you. I know you would rather enable than to answer people's uninformed questions, but I can't find information as to the use of two skimmers. Should each of them be able to carry a 1600 liter water volume or rather the sum of the two of them?

I really appreciate EVERYONE'S time, answers, energy and enthusiasm!

Cheers,
Christi

btw...how do a I attach the picture to actually APPEAR in the thread and not just the link to it?

 

[Anthony Calfo]

no worries. And FWIW, if you must use the vertical overflow tower, then keep it as open as possible. That is to say... you can use the Durso modification or the like, but do not "filter" the water via rock, rubble, bioballs, pads, etc. Just send it stright down to a tight skimmer well ASAP

 

[Haole]

Haole. Diagrams were great. The escape chamber up and over the top of the inlet feed is a great safety if the pressure in the inlet prior to the "T" gets too high. Very smart.

Thanks for the kind words, bc_slc!
It's proven itself to work a couple of times already, especially after replacing a freshly cleaned return pump. :shock: