is it ethical to keep fish?

[dj tryrd]

i have no friends (exageration, i do have fish) their fore i have a lot of time on my hands to ponder philosophy, religion, ethics, illuminati, etc, durring the day. throughout my short 14 years of life i have always been plagued with the same guilt of weather or not it is ethical to keep fish (any pets for that matter but for now we will stick to fish).

the reason i loose sleep at night is because many fish, inverts, even plants are better off in the wild, or maybe not now with the way we collect them!
for example the average gold fish lives under 10 years, yet when given proper care they can easily excede 75 years of age. thats at least a 65 year difference, most often caused by the inside of the fish growing when the outside cant, or improper filtration for an animal that processes food in 5 minutes!!! (no stumache)

as another reef fronteirist brought up many fish are kept in improper sived tank due to misconceptions and ignorance, but i ask of you, is any tank truly big enough?when we consider every possible outcome of the life of a fish in the wild, it may migrate from reef to reef, it may breed, it may decide ' hey i might be happier over their, and mossy along to a new spot. all things a fish cant do in most tanks. yeah they can mate, but what happen to the eggs. unless the aquarist makes the effort to set up special breeder tanks (which most are, no offense, to lazy to do, the babies become filter food. and when you consider fish mating habits ie tangs which form a school with one female surrounded by multiple males waiting for the female to dart upward forceing the eggs from her, the males follow her and expel their sperm out as well. can we replicate, realy replicate this in a common house hold aquarium?

most of the fish people buy die young. lets face it it is the cold hard facts.
many people buy a tank because they want to "keep a nemo and a old fish in their house". with people as uneducated in the hobby as that walking around with money burning a hole in their pockets no wonder most of the fish die.


i can understand the aquarium trade from the educational stand point or even the valuable research gained from breeders and more that casual observers, but what about the bowl user? or the casual observer who doesn't know the diference between a nemo and a true oscilarus clown fish? even worse the pet store owner who told me my ph was 0 because it was bellow the 8.4 to 6.7 scale on his testing supplies. (dont worry fresh water)

i want someone to justify the keeping of aquariums to me so i can sleep at night.

then i want someone to explain to me why no one has enacted a law making aquariums a liscenced hobby, requiring a liscensce for anyone to keep an aquarium.

thank you for taking the time to read my miny (porly writen) speach, following parlimentary procedures, i make a motion to open the floor for cross examination and open discussion.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

I can't really answer your ethical questions because ethics are based upon an individual's own view of right and wrong. What may be ethical for me, may not be ethical for you. And then there's the Governor of Illinois...

But seriously... my wife and I have had similar discussions as what you're describing, and it is an ethical dilemma. My justification for my reef is that it has opened so many eyes to what a coral reef really is. It's hard for people to understand the need to preserve things if they don't understand what it is they're preserving. The vast majority of people that look at my corals don't even realize they're looking at coral until they ask "What is that?" And then once you tell them that those are various types of corals, I need to help them reattach their jaws after they pick them up off the floor. "I had no idea...." is a typical response. And when that person reads an article about the destruction of reefs, it will now take on a new meaning to them.

Do I feel guilt about have wild-caught fish, and coral harvested from the wild in my tank? Yes. I think we all do from time to time, if we're being honest with ourselves. But I sleep OK at night because well... I have kids and I'm just plain dead tired at the end of the day! But also because I know that I'm doing all I can for my little miniature reef to keep them happy and healthy, and that the aquarium industry is a somewhat regulated industry as far as limits on what can be taken where, and how many. Not saying there aren't loopholes in those regulations, or folks that don't abide by them, but it's not like the Wild West and there aren't any laws.

Personally, I don't think aquariums will ever need to be licensed, but I do think that within my lifetime it will be illegal to buy or sell any fish or coral that is not tank/farm-raised.

 

[tat2z_21]

Well after reading your comments, I find it hard to believe that you are 14. However you do bring up a couple of good thoughts. Since the beginning of time people have domesticated numerous types of animals. Maybe it is our human nature that drives us to "Nurture." WHat ever the case maybe, would these animals be better off where they came from. Yes is the obvious answer, however through the domestication of these animals we have also learned quite a bit from them.

 

[cookie]

For only being 14 you sure write well and can articulate thoughts very well. There is hope for todays youth! I can understand where you are coming from. I think many of us have had the same thoughts. I think that those of us in the hobby long term try to do things as ethically as possible. Its like anything, hunting for example (not a huge supporter of it) but if it were not for hunters, many more of us many have dents on our vehicles. I think with fish, we can help in controlling the population as well as gaining valuable knowledge. Why do we spay animals...is it ethical to take away an animals right to reproduce? If you look at other areas in your life, you will see there are similar ethical issues. If you let yourself loose sleep over such issues, you will be a 14 year old looking as though you are 45. You just need to find out what is right for you and if you continue to have sleepless nights, maybe consider pursuing a different avenue of the hobby. Advocating or educating for example.

 

[briang]

I honestly haven't and will not ever loose sleep over the fact that I try so very hard to keep my fish and corals happy. In the 5 years of my "mixed reefing", sure, I lost a plate coral and some zoos but I've grown and sold and given away a lot of coral. When I give someone a really nice frag, I tell them to do their best to take care of my babies. Sure we loose an occasional fish but we try hard not to, and who's to say that if it were still in the wild, it would have lived longer? I have a couple of fish that have lived since I started my first tank 5 years ago. I don't have any Bulls or Great whites in my tank. So sleep easy there young fella or gal. And as far as the lack of friends go, If you really don't have a lot of friends, I'm sure that this hobby will help you to make some. I've made a few by going to my LFS and striking up a conversation with someone looking at a fish or coral that I may have or wished could go in my tank. Just say to them, Do you have a tank? You'll be amazed at the nice conversations that will come your way because of this great hobby. Not to mention the fact that when you meet that special someone, you can say, "Would you like to come over my house to see my tank?" What a hobby!!, relax and enjoy it. Good luck.

 

[lavenderfish]

I just want to point out that there are a couple of people on here with clowns in their teens when the life expectancy in the wild is about 4 years.

Ethically speaking I do try very hard to not buy things that will not thrive in my system.

 

[balogh03]

I just want to point out that there are a couple of people on here with clowns in their teens when the life expectancy in the wild is about 4 years.

This is true to say about alot of the smaller sized fish (ie gobies). Most would live a very short life in the wild and most likely be eaten, but when well cared for and no predators, I would think the life would be much better.
However, I don't think is "ethical" to keep fish that get 2'+ and most specially sharks that can't stop swimming in captivity.

.02,

-augustus

 

[gas4544]

then i want someone to explain to me why no one has enacted a law making aquariums a liscenced hobby, requiring a liscensce for anyone to keep an aquarium.

I do not believe that licensing of aquarists is feasible. It would be difficult to set up such a system, and darn near impossible to enforce. Aquarists acquire their sealife from many different sources - LFS, online suppliers, buying, selling and trading with other aquarists. Besides, such a system would likely be run by some level of government, with people who know little or nothing about captive reefs making laws.

The best way to advance responsible reefkeeping is first to practice responsibility in your own tank. If you do not have the time, money, education or resources to provide a suitable environment for a creature, then do not get that creature until you do. If you know that your tank is too small for that tang you want, or that your lighting is not sufficient for coral that that has lighting requirements, then hold off until you upgrade your system to meet their requirements. It is heartbreaking to see a tank that is neglected, too small, or overrun by nuisance algae.

Personally, I take the well being of every lifeform in my care seriously. Eight years ago when I was a new reefer, two Bangaii Cardinals paired up and mated. It wa not my original intention to raise baby Bangaiis, but I decided to get educated and to raise the babies. I found great online resources and asked allot of questions. Frank Marini gave me lots of great advice, and I sucessfully rasied four broods of babies with a very high survival rate. I know that not everyone wants to raise baby fish, but I decided to do so. Raising those babies was one of the coolest reefing experiences I have ever had.

The second thing that we can do to promote our passion is to be a vocal advocate and to educate others. How many times have you been in a LFS and noticed a new saltwater hobbiest who needed some help? Everybody starts out as a newbie, and experienced reefers like us can be an invaluable resource to others and to each other. If you see a newbie, ask them about their tank and their stocking plans. Direct them to a good online saltwater forum like RF and RC. Suggest some good, current reefkeeping books for them to read. Invite them to join your local reef club. We are all in this together, and we should help out each other, especially the newer reefkeepers.

Third, acquire captive bred fish and coral whenever possible. Do some captive aquaculture of your own by fragging your coral for other reekeepers. If you are up to the challenge and have the time and resources, consider raising some baby fish. Its allot of work, but it is also an amazing experience.

Fourth, show off your tank to educate the public. If someone comes over to your house, they will likely be drawn to look at you tank. Answer their questions and talk about the decline of wild reef ecosystems. We are probably the best advocates for personally piquing the interest of others about coral reefs. If you have kids, share your hobby with them. Many of us are reefkeepers now because we grew up in a house that had an aquarium and developed an interst in sealife when we were young.

Personally, I do not have any ethical issues with keeping my tank. I strive to learn about the needs of my critters and to meet those needs. They are in my possession, so I am responsible for their well being.

Gary

 

[dj tryrd]

thank you all for the responses, to clarify, i was joking about the being friendless and the loss of sleep and I was being honest when i said i was 14.


while it may not be feasable, their could always be a half way point concerning testing and proper training procedure for all employees. (we have all seen the petsmart employee who tells us that a freshwater tank can be made saltwater with a little epsom) anyway that is a discussion for my local government officials and possibly the future president later on.


once again i want to say thank you for the responses, and have a nice sunday.

 

[briang]

thank you all for the responses, to clarify, i was joking about the being friendless and the loss of sleep and I was being honest when i said i was 14.end quote]

Why you little fibber, no wonder you don't have any friends. LOL:badgrin:

 

[dj tryrd]

lol good comment

kindof off topic but what is a tom cat?

 

[cookie]

lol good comment

kindof off topic but what is a tom cat?

simply put, a tom cat is a male cat. What is a female cat called you ask.... especially when pregnant or nursing, a female cat is referred to as a queen, more commonly though, just a female.

 

[dj tryrd]

ohh ok.........sounds a bit obvius when you spell it out like that.

 

[dj tryrd]

guess we all have slow days......or atleast me.

 

[luke33]

Is it ethical to spend 100k on an education only to have to work for 40-50yrs of your life then retire and die a few yrs later.......let your young mind wander.

Fish that live in proper conditions are ok in captivity imo. Like mentioned above, when people start adding 2' + sharks and whatnot into 125g tanks it gets pretty silly.

 

[dj tryrd]

yes but how does one figure out the proper conditions.

everyone says they try their best to keep their inhabitants "happy" but how does one measure the happyness of a fish?

is it by its health?

if so what sense does that make? no offense i know that fish are far more primitive than we are but if you force a man to run 3 hours a day a lift weights and eat a healthy diet do you expect him to be happy?

you can be realy healthy and still miserable.

fish can 'feel' maybe not in the typical sense we think of, but they do get stressed, the feal the instinct for survival forcing their heart rate up as they are being chased, simulating a feeling of fear.

and when a fish dies in an aquarium prematurely due to aquarist error for overlooking some major (or even minor ) detail, what then. if we kept dogs in the conditions we keep some fish in we would be in jail faster than you can say michael vick. most 'bowlfish' ,if their is such a term, are treated much like a puppy pitull in a 1x1x1 ft cage for its entire life never allowed out, and stuck in colder environments than what is recomended for health, like in the case of goldfish ,oscars, bettas, etc.

some aquarist might be 'good' i like to think i am, but the majority of us are bad. people with little knowledge and no thirst for it.

how many times have you heard some one say "ohh a tank? i had one once but it was too hard to take care of everything died so i sold it". my guess would be too many.

our reefs are being destroyed because of our collection techniques when their are many safer alternatives. albiet a tad more expensive in most cases.



thanks to your help i have made a decision on what i will do.

today i started a club petition. an aquaculture club petition.

we will star out with live rock, then move on to seahorses (which are becoming more and more rare because of the aquarium trade. we will release most of the natives (h zoostera is the one i have experience with breeding) back into the wild and sell them.

together we can make a difference so i urge you guys to keep on learning keep on trying and never think you have alll the answers.....i urge you guys to continue what you are doing now......and what you have inspired me to do.


(sorry about the preachy end, i'm still stuck in speach writing mode from debate)

 

[luke33]

IMO if a fish is happy it is healthy. If i fish is in impropper conditions it will let you know with poor health or serious aggressiveness.

 

[balogh03]

our reefs are being destroyed because of our collection techniques when their are many safer alternatives.

I will admit that we do have an impact on the reefs, but it is NOT anywhere close to the other things destroying it. I am not one that likes to think the fish in my care came from the wild, but I can't handle it when saying that reefs are being destroyed because of us. You need to do a little research on drag nets, overfishing, ships dragging anchors, and of the worst, the resorts buying a "lot" of reef only to pave over everything.

Also, none of my fish have to worry about looking for food everyday...they just follow me from end to ending waiting patiently for me to feed. I must be a ruff life right?

-augustus

 

[dj tryrd]

i might have over exagerated but i kind of blame humans for the impending doom our oceans will face in the next century or 2. like the oceans becoming acidic due to excess (i believe but double check here) H+ ions in the water, whci hinturn stunts the growth of corals, not to mention massive plankton die offs resulting in massive dead zones of increasing durration and size. then we got the plastic in our oceans that are starting to disolve at a molecular level and scientist are still unsure of the long term affects of that, and it is all our faults (realy politicians and lobyist, and lack of regulations in second and thirdworld countries.

but i can't help but be a little prejudice against humans as a species knowing what we have created (even though it was in ignorance for the most part)

now that we are at a time when we do kn ow about the problems and should be able to fix them we lazy humans dont take the initiative, and why should we? were being bred into a society that promotes excedingly comfortable lifestyles.

but then again their i go ranting again.

 

[briang]

i might have over exagerated
but then again their i go ranting again.

Yep, cut it out. LOL:badgrin: