Just got pH probe and ...

[bklynmet]

Boomer,

pH if water in the kalk resevoir is 11.5. Note that I just upped the dosage from 1 to 2 tsp last night so about 1/4 to 1/3 of the resevoir is at the new dosage.

I'll look into the bypass and seeing how that is plumbed. Thanks.

 

[Boomer]

OK, recheck it later to see what it is. If still at 11.5 it can still go 1 pH unit higher almost. Shoot for just over 12 to be safe.

 

[bklynmet]

DonW. You make a good point.
I now see what you mean my the bypass - I looked at Deltec's PDF instructions.

I don't have that issue because I topoff with a peristalic pump and have it running for no more than one minute at at time which equates to 1.65 ounces max each time it kicks on. I adjust the time gap between time it kicks on - never to fill up more than evaporation in a day. (Gotta love the Aquacontroller) A float switch set a little higher up is there for backup.

 

[bklynmet]

Boomer.. after getting things setup, things were working great for two days.. the pH was at 8.05 day and 8.01 at night... extremely stable though not the target minimum of 8.1. Alk was at 11dkH. Calc was at 430 and Mg being raised from 1200 and not measured then. New growth of coralline and monti cap was evident and great. dosing the kalk at night was working great.

But, this morning I got up, and the pH was at 7.84 and the Alk at 9dkH... Mg is now at 1300. The top-off w/ kalk did work overnight... measured Calc at 400ppm and Mg is now at 1300 (all salifert). check the probe against a calibrated solution and it was on target. pH of kalk solution was 12.

Does the drop in pH, Alk and calc mean I need to start up the 2 part again?
Nothing was done to the tank the past week (aside from starting the top-off only at night) except on thurday evening I did a 10% water change and cleaned out the siphon over flow which had a ton of hair algae and stuff in it...

do you think the algae in there was producing oxygen to raise the pH during the day and the removal of it is now creating a oxygen deficiency? or do I need to start the two part regiment up again.

 

[DonW]

The 10% water change may have be your culprit if your using IO and not adjusting the fresh mix.

Don

 

[bklynmet]

The 10% water change may have be your culprit if your using IO and not adjusting the fresh mix.

Don

Don, you lost me.. IO?

I use RO/DI water and premix the fresh mix at least 24 hours prior (actually it's constantly being aerated in a resevoir at a SG equal to the tank.). I should test the water in there and see where that's at for pH, ALk and Ca and see if that is that is the cause.

 

[DonW]

Don, you lost me.. IO?

I use RO/DI water and premix the fresh mix at least 24 hours prior (actually it's constantly being aerated in a resevoir at a SG equal to the tank.). I should test the water in there and see where that's at for pH, ALk and Ca and see if that is that is the cause.

IO is Intant Ocean salt. Yes you should be checking and adjusting your salt mix. IO usually comes in around 380 so if you do a water change your going to lower your ca mg and alk if you want your alk over 9.

Don

 

[bklynmet]

Oh.. but I use Coralife Salt mix.

 

[Boomer]

do you think the algae in there was producing oxygen to raise the pH during the day and the removal of it is now creating a oxygen deficiency

Oxygen has no effect on pH. It is CO2. As CO2 is removed during the day the pH goes up and as CO2 increases during the night, due to plants resting and giving off CO2, it then goes down..

It still may have been the salt mix as Don suggested, that is the only logical explanation. How did you mix that salt? Did you add the salt to water or water to salt. How long did it sit under aeration before you used it ?

 

[bklynmet]

update: ph is up to 7.98 this morning - before lights on....

husbandy: I have a resevoir receiving fresh RO/DI. The water is constantly mixed via pump. I add salt to water to get to proper salinity the day before a water change. Let it mix with the water being agitated by the pump. After 24 hours re-check sailinity, check temp, then transport waterneeded to tank. There is usally a few gallons left in the resevoir. Resevoir gets cleaned every six months. Last resevoir cleaving was 1.5 months ago. Water changes are weekly.

So the pH is driven up during the day solely by the photosytheic organisms stopping the production of carbon dioxide (because they're producing oxygen) and the increased circulation of the pumps turning on during the day that drive off CO2. Correct?

Do I need to start a 2-part regiment again to replenish calcium and alk based on the post above from 11-05-2006 12:33 PM?

 

[DonW]

and the increased circulation of the pumps turning on during the day that drive off CO2. Correct?

Are you turning pumps off at night? Still may be a salt issue, test the fresh mix.

Don

 

[Boomer]

What is the pH now during the day ? 7.98 is not something I would worry about vbefore light on but yes it would be nicer to see it higher than 8. What is the kalk mix pH ? You should get it just above 12 before we try or play with other things.

So the pH is driven up during the day solely by the photosytheic organisms stopping the production of carbon dioxide (because they're producing oxygen) and the increased circulation of the pumps turning on during the day that drive off CO2. Correct?

Yes more or less but high room air CO2 can also keep the pH down which may be your issue. Open a couple of windows if you can for a 2-3 hrs and see if the pH goes up.

Do I need to start a 2-part regiment again to replenish calcium and alk based on the post above from 11-05-2006 12:33 PM?

Not yet, we need to see what the damand is, ie. how much the Alk and Ca++ drop each day with the kalk use if it does. Right now your Alk, Ca++ and Mg++ are perfect. It is just a slight pH issue.

 

[bklynmet]

I think I'm going to prolong the photo period so it's on for for 12 hours from the time the first lights come on instead of the current total of 10. That should probably help as well. Same with the closed loop - increasing the time those pumps stay on for an additional 2 hours. I'm going to be replacing the CL with two modded MJ1200s as soon as I make a bracket for them.

I don't know how familiar you are with Lifereef Skimmers but they are venturi that doesn't draw fresh air but draw air from the collection cup. This keeps the venturi moist and salt creep is non existant. So my skimmer may be handicapping things just a little due to this feature.

opening windows isnt an option because the wife and kids are home during the day and it's cool outside.

pH of kalk is still 11.5.. I dont know if the max the controller can read is that or not or just the max that Mrs Wages can reach. I tested a freshly mixed solution and it was 11.5. Also rechecked against calibrated solutions and they were on target at 7 and 10.. I'll ask Curt from Neptune about it.



I'm going to log the ph on the graph below over a weeks time to see what happens.

 

[Boomer]

bkly

Was that at 2 tsps / gal and it was still 11.5 ? If it is not in the low 12's it is not saturated.

Some things to look at.

Limewater (kalkwasser)

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm

The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm

Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm




I know Jeff Turcheck form LifeReefs very well but have not taked to him in ages

 

[bklynmet]

bkly

Was that at 2 tsps / gal and it was still 11.5 ? If it is not in the low 12's it is not saturated.

yep .. 2tsp/gal of mrs wages... thats why I emailed Curt at Neptune to see if it's an equipment thing. (However, as stated the contorller was reading the calibration solution on target). The limewater/kalk is in a sealed container penetrated only by the airline tubing feeding the pump and very tiny airhole. Also, the limewater in the resevoir gets used up within a week so it doesn't get a chance to substantially degrade per the articles studies - I think anyway.


I ask myself what I'd be doing right now without the constant pH readout.. I'd sleep easier. But one good thing I've noticed is increased stability in the pH swings and a burst of growth when things got stable (ang I got Mg to 1300).

This thread has been good in that the intial suggestions of solely topping off at night and redirecting the return to agitate the surface more helped withthe daily pH swings tremendously. Also, diatoms/algae has been slower in growing on the glass too! So, I thank you Boomer and Don for that.

I keep telling myself that there no magic pill and that with patience we'll get things situated and balanced in the tank. I'll keep you posted on what Curt tells me about the AC Jr and pH. Once I get the resevoir ready with new saltwater for the next water change, I'll post the make-up water parameters as well and see if that is the culprit. Thanks again.

 

[pfish]

Excellent info in this tread.

 

[pfish]

thread, lol.

 

[Boomer]

You are welcome from me and Don


Try adding more Mrs Wages next time and see if the pH will go into the 12's

 

[bklynmet]

phfish.. thanks... boomer and DonW have really been helpfull.

Boomer - I did that yesterday just in a liter bottle adding 3 tsp (just to be sure there was enough kalk in there) and had the same result.. but wait - I now know why my AC Jr reads 11.5. I got an answer from Curt at Neptune - read by clicking here

So the issue w.r.t. measurement of kalk's pH. My particular AC JR is not inaccurate - just cannot measure anything higher than pH of 11.5. Judging on how quick the pH shoots up and stops all of a sudden at 11.5, I believe the kalk is saturated at above 12.

Today's update - I lengthened the light's photoperiod -ON for two additional hours - so it's on 12 hours of photoperiod (10 with all six lamps lit). pH was higher this morning at 6AM than yesterday at 6 AM. see the graph comparing the days here:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/photos_members/showphoto.php?photo=5640&cat=500&ppuser=14233

 

[bklynmet]

ok. update. I 'tested my air' by basically doing Randy Holmes Farley's recommendation of filling a cup and aerating with fresh air and inside air for one hour respectively and comparing the pH. The inside air resulted in a pH 0.15 lower than the fresh air - meaning the inside air has more CO2 - and the reason I cannot drive it up higher. It also explains why the pH dips a tad during the day - increased ciruculation aerates the tank with CO2 air.

Also I got to testing the makeup water for water changes, the pH in the makeup water was a little lower than that of the tank - because it was being aerated with in-house air as well.

Source of CO2 - well in addition to us breathing the furnace is in the next room creates CO2 as it burns the natural gas. My plan - bring airline from the garage to supply the tank with fresh air. It's the least obtrusive plan I can think of so far unless there is another idea.