K Potassium test kits? What is dangerous (use with NeoZeo Zeovit)

[Gordonious]

So I started using NeoZeo and before letting it touch the water I used a "high resolution" kit from Elos. It appeared to be about 400, so I thought all was good. However now that I have the media running I am concerned I won't be able to tell the potassium is dropping until it reaches ~250, so there is no way I could maintain it in the recommended 390-410 range recommended by Brightwell.

What is a good way to test for Potassium with high resolution?

Also at what level is potassium depletion dangerous? If it is ok that it slips to 200ppm before I add more or if I over dose to 500ppm this kit may be fine

 

[DonW]

Ive never used the Elos test kit. I have used the KZ and it sounds like they are higher resolution. Honestly I doubt if you maintain your tank you will ever see the K level fall to the point that it becomes dangerous. We have run reef for many years without ever caring about K until zeo came around just a few years ago. Overdosing on the other hand will kill your livestock.

Don

 

[Gordonious]

People may have maintained reef tanks for main years with out ever caring about K, but there was also never anything pulling it out of the water column. I wasn't even aware KZ made a K test kit. The only kits I could find were Elos, Salifert, and SeaChem. I'll look into KZ's. Thanks very much for the suggestion.

 

[DonW]

People may have maintained reef tanks for main years with out ever caring about K, but there was also never anything pulling it out of the water column. I wasn't even aware KZ made a K test kit. The only kits I could find were Elos, Salifert, and SeaChem. I'll look into KZ's. Thanks very much for the suggestion.

What do you mean there was nothing pulling it out of the water column. Sea life has'nt changed the consumption of K has always been there. Waterchanges are usually more than enough to maintain K. Dosing K is more of an expert technique used to manipulate sps coloration. All these so called K suppliments on the market are fairly new. We used to use good old fashion lab grade K chloride at less than half the cost to play with K. But it its playing, there is no real manditory need to dose or even test K. FYI K chloride is dangerous so keep it away from kids and animals it will stop their heart instantly.

Don

 

[Gordonious]

Don you may want to read up on Zeolit media and NeoZeo media. One of the biggest reasons people started testing for K and dosing it is these medias not only absorb Ammonium out of the water, but K as well. It is the down side to using this media.

From Chris Brightwell, "The media also removes other monovalent cations from solution, most importantly potassium; therefore, potassium supplementation is required in systems employing NeoZeo media."

So if you begin using NeoZeo and other Zeolit medias it isn't that sea life somehow evolved to use potassium in a great concentration, but this media that lowers the concentration in the water.

 

[DonW]

Don you may want to read up on Zeolit media and NeoZeo media. One of the biggest reasons people started testing for K and dosing it is these medias not only absorb Ammonium out of the water, but K as well. It is the down side to using this media.

From Chris Brightwell, "The media also removes other monovalent cations from solution, most importantly potassium; therefore, potassium supplementation is required in systems employing NeoZeo media."

So if you begin using NeoZeo and other Zeolit medias it isn't that sea life somehow evolved to use potassium in a great concentration, but this media that lowers the concentration in the water.

Even with another depletion source such as zeolite which isnt new by the way the consumptions can easily be controlled via water changes. Although Brightwell does seem to make decent products they are in business to make money. Zeolith methodolgy has been around for quite some time and K dosing has been hit and mis with the method for many years.

Don

 

[Gordonious]

If you using a salt that does not have elevated levels of K in it, but has it present in NSW ratio then I can see it reducing the need for dosing K, but not eliminating it. If for instance the level of K drops from 400ppm to 380 and you do a 50% water change with a salt mix containing 400ppm the result would be a concentration of 390ppm of K in the aquarium. After that period of time elapses again the concentration may drop from 390 to 370 and after a 50% water change you would be left with 385ppm K. In time your K will be lower and lower.

Obviously this is an extreme example and obviously I am not too familiar with how quickly K drops however I don't see how water changes alone can solve the issue.

It appears as if it is rare for someone to use a K test kit to dictate the amount of dosing of K required. I am being told by people again and again that they use the coloration of corals to tell them if the concentration is low. I may however purchase a KZ kit and/or the new RedSea kit release in the last week just to give them a try and see if they help. I've also been given the idea to make up a standard and keep it for comparison. IE do the test and keep the cloudy test vial if in the week you do the test again and the vial is less cloudy then the concentration of K is likely dropping and more dosing is needed. Still on the fense as to exactly how I will monitor this, but getting more ideas.

 

[DonW]

If you using a salt that does not have elevated levels of K in it, but has it present in NSW ratio then I can see it reducing the need for dosing K, but not eliminating it. If for instance the level of K drops from 400ppm to 380 and you do a 50% water change with a salt mix containing 400ppm the result would be a concentration of 390ppm of K in the aquarium. After that period of time elapses again the concentration may drop from 390 to 370 and after a 50% water change you would be left with 385ppm K. In time your K will be lower and lower.

Obviously this is an extreme example and obviously I am not too familiar with how quickly K drops however I don't see how water changes alone can solve the issue.

It appears as if it is rare for someone to use a K test kit to dictate the amount of dosing of K required. I am being told by people again and again that they use the coloration of corals to tell them if the concentration is low. I may however purchase a KZ kit and/or the new RedSea kit release in the last week just to give them a try and see if they help. I've also been given the idea to make up a standard and keep it for comparison. IE do the test and keep the cloudy test vial if in the week you do the test again and the vial is less cloudy then the concentration of K is likely dropping and more dosing is needed. Still on the fense as to exactly how I will monitor this, but getting more ideas.

I dont think there is much in the way of proof that low K is detrimental. On the otherhand there is plenty that excess will kill. I wouldnt be even attempting to dose unless you sure you have accurate testing. The KZ test kit when it came out, i guess a few years back was accurate and I verified with a lab. The rest are all new and unproven at this point. The only thing proven is that dosing is not a necessity and should be done accuratly if its to be done at all. Again keep in mind additives have always been the big source of revenue for the hobby and many including K are not manditory.

Don

 

[Gordonious]

Thanks Don. I'll keep the K supplements on the shelf until I get some good test kits in and verify the K is in fact dropping below 399. Appreciate the input.

 

[Frankie]

Hello

Don is correct that even with a zeolite system it is possible to maintain K though water changes. Zeovit users do this by using premium salts like Reef's Best Salt. I never had to supplement K+ and it stayed at 400 with weekly water changes.
It is true that zeovit users tend to have K depletion over time. I have yet to read though any data on why that is. Just speculations by non chemists. My guessing is lack of water changes and heavy skimming. Weekly water changes can be quite demanding for many people.
Zeolites do not remove ammonia in saltwater to even make note of. The main reason for there use in a probiotic system is there ideal structure for bacteria to populate on. Nothing more. This is my own conclusion from doing and studying up on probiotics.

I found the KZ K+ kit to be the best readily available to the hobbyist. I was not aware that Elos came out with one. Good to know. You want to try and maintain K+ between 380/400.

Hope this helps some, Frank~

 

[Gordonious]

Frankie here are some notes from a marine chemist:
"NeoZeo is a zeolitic material that is specifically selected for adsorption of ammonium in solution."
"Zeolites are naturally-occuring minerals that have specific ion-exchange properties; they essentially exchange ions of like-charge with their surrounding medium (in this case, aquarium water). NēoZeo is a blend of zeolites that selectively remove ammonium and certain other monovalent cations from seawater (leaving divalent cations such as calcium, magnesium, strontium, and various minor and trace elements alone), exchanging them primarily for potassium ions, however this is not the primary means of water quality improvement provided by this media; rather, the colonization of the media’s vast surface area with the appropriate types of nutrient-remineralizing microorganisms, such as those found in MicrōBacter7, serves to deplete existing concentrations of dissolved organic material from the aquarium. "

Also did you read my example above. If water changes maintain K in a system that is dropping in K then they would increase the level in tanks that do not use Zeolite media potentially to a dangerous level. Using water changes to replace something that is falling either means you are counting on an increase level of that element in the salt mix or that you realize you are not going to increase the level, but just reduce how quickly the levels are dropping. Make sense?

 

[Frankie]

Who is this marine chemist? Sounds more like a push for the use of NeoZeo then any true data I have read. According to a few trusted sources (One being Boomer) zeolites do not adsorb ammonia out of SALT water enough to make any kind of impact as they do in fresh water. I'll PM boomer and see if he is back in town to discuss this and explain better then I am able to.

Also did you read my example above. If water changes maintain K in a system that is dropping in K then they would increase the level in tanks that do not use Zeolite media potentially to a dangerous level. Using water changes to replace something that is falling either means you are counting on an increase level of that element in the salt mix or that you realize you are not going to increase the level, but just reduce how quickly the levels are dropping. Make sense?

I see how your being confused in your understanding. That is not how it works though.
Water changes just replace the water. There is no build up if you are removing and replacing. Water changes refresh what is being depleted but if nothing is being depleted then they just replace what is already there.
Your saltwater that you are changing out should not be lacking in K+ or any of the other major parameters. The reason why we supplement is because the live stock is absorbing them. Sometimes they get absorbed at a faster rate and that is why we test and dose for these parameters.

 

[Frankie]

OK, I just re, re-read your post. :loco:
Basically were agreeing here.
Sorta I think anyhow LOL
There is no written proof that I have seen that clams the zeolites are depleting K+. More then likely it is due to the bacteria population and skimming in those system that do see drops. And those are few and far between. I think you have nothing to worry about anyhow. Some of the most successful zeovit systems do not supplement K+ that I have seen. Neither did I have too. I still have the unopened bottle from when I first got into it because I wanted to be ready for the BIG DROP LOL

 

[07FocusST]

I m bringing this thread back from the dead. I just started using NeoZeo today. It is placed in my PhosBan reactor with 1/4 BW ExtraPhos (Phosphate Media) amd 3/4 NeoZeo. I have been providing a little K+ for coloration of my SPS but thats about it. K+ is one of the few elements that I do not test. If I noticed anything than I will report here any findings.

 

[Boomer]

If water changes maintain K in a system that is dropping in K then they would increase the level in tanks that do not use Zeolite media potentially to a dangerous level. Using water changes to replace something that is falling either means you are counting on an increase level of that element in the salt mix or that you realize you are not going to increase the level, but just reduce how quickly the levels are dropping. Make sense?

No, as that does not really happen. Most tanks have normal K+ at all times, as it is used and most salt have normal K+ levels.

Frankie here are some notes from a marine chemist:

He is NOT a marine chemist and often talks gibberish nonsenses just like many Zeo people do. He probably got allot of the zeolite chem from reading my countless posts on the chem of zeolites on RC, where I beat them to death with their nonsense. It is not that Zeo sysems do not work and work well for some, it is they are not working as they claim, which is a sales gimmick.

I am being told by people again and again that they use the coloration of corals to tell them if the concentration is low.

This is a reefer thing not a coral need. Just like no coral in nature is under 10, 15 or 20 K light or the water is clear and "white". It is something the reefers likes period. I understand many want brighter and more colorful coral but that is not sign what so ever the corals need or or even wants it. They just become a dump for unwanted ions that do things like reefers like to see. Once a fresh zeo has done its ion exchanging, which is very quick in seawater, there is no more of it as it has equilibrated with the water and ions in the water. If you used a zeo that does not have such a great affinity for K+ there is really K+ depletion. Zeo people are now finding these two things out. So, it is really only fresh new zeo that create this K+ drop not the animals using it. Then there is the last unknown question, is it the zeo type products ( not zeolites or corals) that are using the K+ and or a greater use of K+ by bacteria, if there is a K+ depletion with old Zeo ? So called ULNS are a zeo thing not something seen in nature and it will have its bad and good things as far as reefers go. There are crap loads of stunning tanks that DO NOT use a Zeo type systems. The bad thing with a Zeo type systems is they need allot of critical care and watching or they crash easy. You need to know and understand what you are doing.

 

[turaki tim]

Hi Boomer, I just joined tis forum and quit using kz for exactly the reason you mentioned: it requires a lot of work and additives while I am short time and sometimes away for long periods of time. I now run my system with biopellets that act as a carbon source and keep P and NO3 low.

What I would like to share with this forum is that even though I have switched to biopellets a few months ago now, I can see a number of corals under stress when I do not add KCl.
Red montipora is dull and grey
Stylo and seriotopora have retracted polyps
All corals lose most of their green fluorescence.

I now add KCl through a dosing system and all is back in order.


Just some anecdotal evidence on the topic... But where does the K+ go?

 

[mojoreef]

Most of the zeo world is based on writings from work done at the Burgers zoo in the Netherlands. The concept of using K+ was stumbled on when after nutrient starving their reef displays they had to suppliment nutirents. They added Potassium nitrate to thier display and noticed visible changes to the corals. From their it has seem to become all the rage.

So what does K+ do?? well it is a minor macro-nutrient so it could be allot of things. I could just percipiatate out on to aragonite as potassium chloride? It could be used to activate certain enzymes? perhaps enzymes used in the production of ADP? It also bind to acidic proteins to prevent dehydration?

IMHO I believe it is used by the zoox algae with in the coral and is taken up as a nutrient for chlorophyll production in the zoox algae themselves. This would explain most of the observed effects that zeo user talk about when they use it. So coral fluoresce green more = increased production of chlorophyll makes it dominate and thus looks more green to the human eye. In regards to reds, Red/Orange Fluorescing pocilloporin that primarily absorbs light from 500 to 540 nm (green) and fluoresces light with wavelengths that are primarily orange to red, so on could induce that the increased chlorophyll (Green) content is exciting this pigment. Polyp retraction could be caused by way to many things comment on.


hope it helps

Mojo

 

[mojoreef]

Oh and dont forget K+ has the same effect on algae forms to.

Mojo

 

[Boomer]

I could just percipiatate out on to aragonite as potassium chloride?

Can't happen

But it goes to all those other places you mentioned to include being sucked up big time by zeolite media.

Red montipora is dull and grey
Stylo and seriotopora have retracted polyps
All corals lose most of their green fluorescence.

The addition of K+ does things you want to see not that the coral really needs any more. People for years have run amazing reef tanks without any such dosages or even testing for K+. The other issue is that when almost any level of x, y or z it dosed and then you stop it corals get pissed off. A good example is putting corals from a high nutrient system into a low nutrient system or vis-versa, which often causes them to crash. If one want to keep K+ at NSW levels that is just fine. It is pretty much know that if ions x,y or z are added coral color up but is a thing "You" want to see, but is very unnatural in or on coral reefs. Yes, I understand that most reefers want nice bright colors. My issue is reefers saying "my corals were nice and green and red and faded out. And I found out they needed x, y or z". It is not that they need it, it is "You" need it to get those unnatural colors back. And it is the same thing with many lights. It is a human need not a coral need.

Wait, I said all this in my other post already


PS
You go that cat ****faced again Mojo

 

[Aquanaut]

At SeaMax I attended a seminar that discussed this Potassium topic. They explained that Monti species are "the canary" for showing displeasure of abscent chemistry. I haven't made the step toward Biopellets since my system seems low nutrient enough. But, I have experience the shifts noted above in addition to RTN of Monti spec. SPS and STN of Blue and Green acros and Hydno last year. This all changed around when I began dosing Potassium only because the Elos test kit verified that I nearly bottomed out this vital yet unknown element. The speaker I discussed with commented that Monti and Blue species Acros depend heavily on Potassium. Now I am enjoying a kalidiscope of jewel tones in all my corals. Let my album speak for itself.