Lee! Sick Purple Tang. Moses needs help!

[Herefishyfishy]

Fishy - The fish that died looked like she might have Ich - small spots covered her entire body. The other Heniochus has looked similar off and on since the trouble began. I realize that I have not included that fact in my posts. That's why I wonder if Moses the Tang has the same thing and whether the whole tank is affected. I will try to get another picture of Moses to post.

When you say "chronic" what do you mean? Moses was unblemished until a month ago.

What I was after was if it could be a short term secondary fungal or bacterial infection.
I would call a month long condition of infection "chronic" but this is subjective. HLLE is a better example of chronic and a small infected scratch would be more accute.

As to the other fish in this display having confirmed ich, if the tank hasn't been properly treated it is still there and the primary suspect.

 

[NWDiver]

Thanks Jill.
Let me know a good time, I'd love to swing by and see your system, mutual friends were very impressed with your setup!
Good luck with the treatment.

-Todd

 

[jill]

The MI parasite has ranges to its stages such that the population of parasites are not acting in unison. That is, for the most part, they randomize as the infection goes forward. Spots will come and go without regards to any time schedule (apparently).

Not sure about your dosing question. Do you have a diagnosis? Will the product work on it?

Seems to me more of a bacterial problem at this point in time. I would move the fish to a QT and treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic.

No, I don't have a diagnosis.

Do you know if there is somewhere I can send my dead frozen fish the find out what she died of?

The only way I am going to get Moses or Georgie out of the tank is to take the whole thing apart and even if I could it wouldn't matter is it is infected with Ich.

It sounds like you haven't heard about Metronizole. It is used for treating parasites. I have read it is reef safe and has sometimes worked to clear infected tanks. My question was if it was safe to use more than once and what that period would be. I will continue to do research on this.

 

[jill]

I do know I could rid the tank of ich if I could get EVERY fish out. But not possible.

No, I don't have a diagnosis.

Do you know if there is somewhere I can send my dead frozen fish the find out what she died of?

The only way I am going to get Moses or Georgie out of the tank is to take the whole thing apart and even if I could it wouldn't matter is it is infected with Ich.

It sounds like you haven't heard about Metronizole. It is used for treating parasites. I have read it is reef safe and has sometimes worked to clear infected tanks. My question was if it was safe to use more than once and what that period would be. I will continue to do research on this.

 

[leebca]

I don't understand the part of

and even if I could it wouldn't matter is it is infected with Ich.

A tank infected with Marine Ich can be rid of Marine Ich by removing the fish from the tank (the 'food' for the parasite) for at least 8 weeks. Fish and tank can be cured of it. However I can not confident that MI is the current problem with the remaining fish.

I'm familiar with Metronizole, if you mean Metronidazole. It is used for the treatment of bacterial infections and infections caused by protozoa. I thought perhaps you had found your fish infected with one of these, rather than the parasite MI. Metronidazole has not been found to be an effective treatment for the ciliated protozoan Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich).

A dead frozen fish doesn't lend itself to necropsy examination. The freezing distorts the cells and tissue leaving them almost impossible to render any kind of good evaluation of cause of death.

I do wish you the best of luck in this.

 

[jill]

Thanks Lee,

I do realize that Ich can be eliminated if no hosts are available for a prolonged period of time.

Here is a picture of Moses that I took yesterday. I couldn't get him to sit still for a photo of the white markings on his side but you can see the bit of white on his head.

I will keep you posted.

 

[NC2WA]

Jill,

I've seen worse before, but still worth catching and going fishless in main tank IMO..

I know your pain about catching fish, as I recently (Dec 2010) went fishless on my tank for 8 wks..yes, this did require me to take half the LR (that is, 100lbs) out of my 375g tank to catch a fairy wrasse and a pair of gobies, and yes it was a major PITA..but it was the right thing to do..hopefully this reply will give you some encouragment to do the same.

read this thread for background info:

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f14/dear-saltwater-hobby-59254/

I lost ALL of my angels, and slowly adding fish back to my system. I truly believe the emperor angelfish came from the wholesaler with flukes or worms...as I did not treat with Prazipro before adding to system. Mia Culpa, and take full responsibility; as experienced and detailed as I am, I should have known better and I paid the price for it, literally.

Now, I have 3 QT tanks (37, 75, 100g) and everything goes thru a QT process for 4-6 wks. I currently have a 4" majestic and blueface angel in separate QT tanks (one in a 37 and another in 100 g)..both went thru a successful 7 day PraziPro treatment and next Tuesday will be 3 wks in QT.

If you want to see my system, click the Live WebCam link at the bottom of my signature during regular viewing hrs, 11a-8:45p PST.

I have 3 yellow pyramid butterflies that school together, XL Blonde Naso tang, kole tang, copperband butterfly, large pinktail trigger, pair of orange diamond gobies, green mandarin, and a carpenter fairy wrasse.

HTH
Kirk

 

[jill]

Thanks Kirk. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to share your experience and advice with me. And that goes for Lee too. Its very nice to know there are people out there who care.

I read your thread. Just so I understand, were you were able to get the butterflies, tang, copperband and trigger out of the tank and into QT? I got confused because you said you weren't going to be spending 6 hours a day on the hospital tanks through the holidays when you could be spending time with your girls (which I fully understand BTW). If you were indeed able to save those fish thats fantastic!

Did you get a definiative diagnosis for what killed your angels? Its weird that it didn't get the butterfly fish as I know they are also very susceptible to Ich.

The problem I have with pulling everything out (besides the time and expense) is that I don't know what is going on. Is it disease, parasites, viral or bacterial.
Do I mess with the entire ecosystem and risk stressing and possibly killing my cardinal shrimp, acros, other corals, etc when I don't even know if this is Ich? Then I may lose everyone anyway and I don't know if its worth it.

Only the bannerfish and tang have been afflicted and they have different symptoms. My Angels, puffer, gobi, blenny, clownfish and damsels are absolutely fine. In
addition, all of this started RIGHT after the big plumbing change which happened 6 weeks ago, which takes me back to Lee's original suspicion of poisoining. I wish there was some way I could have found out if Gracie the bannerfish died of Ich.

Georgie the bannerfish looks completely fine now but I know that if my tank is infected with Ich that he will get sick again. Moses still acts as healthy as he ever has and the white areas have not changed. And the white patches are not anything like the "grains of salt" look of Ich.

So I think I am going to just take a wait and see approach.

I will keep everyone posted on this thread so thanks again!

 

[Herefishyfishy]

If no fish are showing symptoms except the tang with it's small faded spot, I would attempt to ride it out. This means adding nothing wet to the tank for most of a year (fish/corals/inverts.) I have read that in a heathy properly fed tank, the MI will eventually die off from lack of genetic diversity as the fish build up "resistance."

 

[NC2WA]

Just so I understand, were you were able to get the butterflies, tang, copperband and trigger out of the tank and into QT?

Yes and no.

In Dec 2010, I only had one yellow pyramid buttefly and didnt have the triggerfish. The original fish that were in the tank when this mess happened were: yellow pyramid, copperband, naso tang, kole tang, fairy wrasse and pair of orange diamond gobies.

I was successfully able to catch them and put into a QT tank. These are the only ones that made it. The comment about not doing water changes etc was due to the fact that I couldnt keep ammonia from spiking and with angels as you know that is a big no no. However, every angel that died had a red belly so I am surmising that flukes or worms was the issue as all of this started after the emperor was added. (keep in mind, I had all of these angels for 2 yrs with no issues).

After 8wks of a fishless DT, I have added 2 yellow pyramid butterflies and a pink tail trigger. I am going to give the butterflies 3-4 wks to settle in, before I add the majestic and blueface angel.

 

[jill]

Hi Everyone,

Its been almost a month since my first post and the death of one of my bannerfish.

I am happy to report that everyone is still alive and seemingly healthy. Moses, my purple Tang still has the same white markings although they do seem to be fading a bit. He is as onery as every and has not lost any weight or his zest for life.

I have followed Lee's advice as far as massive water changes and lots of good food. I will continue to update.

Thanks to everyone.

 

[returnofsid]

Thanks for the update and glad to hear that things seem to be improving!!

 

[NC2WA]

Jill,

Good to hear. I would not add ANY fish to your system for at least one year. Give whatever you had in your tank time to work its way thru the system.

 

[jill]

So its now been 2 months and all the fish are fine! All of the white areas are now gone and everyone is healthy. The fish must have been very stressed because of the plumbing changes. This will be my last update on this thread so thanks again to everyone for their help.