Lets talk about Controlling Algae in a BB system!

[NaH2O]

I thought I'd just grow some hair algae for the first 7 months of my tank's life - I have awesome biodiversity, that's for sure. Grrrr....the algae became so frustrating that I thought about tossing in an old tennis shoe and a couple of empty beer bottles - creating a great little nutrient laden biotope.

Actually, trying to determine the source of my nutrient problem was challenging. I know, Mike, I know...."your tank is young, and you have nothing competing for the algae, yet".....why is that ringing in my head?? Anyway, combined issues, I think. Making some changes with my program, and see where it leads. I do blow the rocks off, and they still seem to be shedding quite a bit, but how do I know if all the detritus is from the "curing" process, and it is still shedding old dead "junk"? Or, is it spitting out the recently processed dying and dead algaes? Perhaps it is a little of both.

Live rock is a very active thing, and the notion that it is a big carbonate sponge that sucks up all the nutrients and slowly releases them causing algae and/or posioning the tank I think is relatively rare.

This is where I get confused. I understand that live rock is always in a state of flux. But, in a closed system, when you walk the line of too many nutrients for some hobbyists (creating algae growth), couldn't the rock become overloaded processing all the excess foods and wastes? For some hobbyists, if they have an algae problem, taking a water sample and testing for phosphates from the water column, yields a zero - no inorganic phosphates in the water. However, if they then take a water sample from inside the rock structure/near the rock surface where the algae is taking hold, and test, there may be a postitive result for phosphates. To me that means there are phosphates coming from the rock and causing an algae issue. Everybody in and on the rock (i.e. bacteria), that takes care of processing is "full" and the inorganic phosphates are left over for the algae to feed on. Am I way off in space on this one?

 

[EricHugo]

Porewater samples in nature are always greatly elevated. If they were as low as reef waters, the rock would be nearly nothing but a chunk of carbonate and no life would grow. The nutrient processing abiities of microbes in sand and rock substrates depends on nutrient enrichment. A young tank has algae issues becuase of successional ecology. A tank that has a constant inorganic nutrient issue has it for aquarist-related reasons in what I would guess is over 99% of the time and the rare cases (and they do exist) where the substrates are actually incompatible with the tank volume and/or the uptake and export mechanisms present. I think that blaming rock and sand happens far too often, and the blame should be pointed squarely at the aquarist. Another time I see persistent algae problems that are substrate related are when substitutes for reef rock are present (and have personally had this happen when I bought "lace rock" for a tank from a garden supply store. This rock is so non-porous that is cannot support the diversity except for those things that live directly on the surface. Also, rock comprised of, as mentioned above, solids material that slowly is dissolved and releases material (usually metals and not nutrients, like aluminum, lead and iron) that are incompatible with tank life and volumes - like concrete can do.

If anyone wants some good reading references on the microbial ecology of marine sediments and benthos, let me know. I think it would help clear up the processes that are naturally separated in function, even when adjacent to other in space.

 

[wrightme43]

Oh yeah, I would love some good reading refferences on the microbial ecology of marine sediments and bentohos. I have always had a hard time wrapping my brain around live rock and sand becoming saturated and then releasing stuff. I would love to learn more. Thanks Steve

 

[Scooterman]

I have to admit, no matter how much I vacuum, in a week or two time I get this pile of waste all in one corner of the tank, I can suck it clean again it will happen in no time, & I'm talking a rather large amount as compared to the amount of LR I have in the tank, I couldn't imagine if I had the full 250lbs in there right now.
One a side note, after blowing off all the rocks Every night, I've noticed a coverage of fine brown algae on the new cooked rocks.

 

[mojoreef]

Good Post Eric...Although I have to give you 3 demerit points for making me concentrate this early in the morning,

As to rock crevices being filled with detritus or purportedly acting as a nutrient "sponge" that leaches out nutrients, I don't really go for that idea

Thats not really what I was trying to say. Live rock is basically an ecosystem skewed towards bacteria, with a population of higher organisms. it is a natural effect for nutrients to be absorbed by by the critters that live with in the rock. Ex: waste/food/detritus lands on the rock and begins to be reduced by the bacteria, by products of each bacterial strain are passed down to the next level and reduced more. With this process coupled with population fluxes (both bacteria and higher) ,the constant enzyme production, bacterial biofilms and so on it is natural for the rock to push excesses out (gravity). As this material is shed from the rock it produces a food source for surface or water column life forms, Algae is usually johnny on the spot. I am not sure what amount of this is soluble, I would guess a small amount.
Personally I believe that Live rock can only handle a certain amount of these nutrients (food/waste/detritus) and in most cases in the home tanks it reaches a point where the nutrient/byproduct transfer rate becomes to quick or the presence of ammonia begins to reduce the ability for denitrification (Charles did a good study of this on Jeauberts system). Then you would also have to factor in the natural process of the anaerobic zones increasing in mass and decreasing the operating zone for aerobic bacteria.
I believe at this point food/waste/detritus begins to stack up in the processing line of the LR. Form here the hobbist begins to see more algae blooms as the cycle center has moved more towards the surface of the rock, when the algae has a edge in environment. From here cooking the rock (eliminating light) tends to allow the rock and its bacterial components to catch up on the stacked up nutrients/waste/food/detritus.


OK I need way more coffee...and another smoke :idea:


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

One a side note, after blowing off all the rocks Every night, I've noticed a coverage of fine brown algae on the new cooked rocks.

Sounds like cyano scooping up available nitrogen coming from the rocks

Mike

 

[DonW]

Kind of off the topic but since rock is the discussion. I have problems controlling soft coral growth. Every week I get a patch or two of a green and sometimes brown soft coral. They a 1/4 polyps about a 1/2 tall kind of like zenia. Since Ive never kept softies I have no clue what they are. They spread like fire, I guess if I had a softy tank this would be good. I also get zoo's growing everywhere that just appeared. They are orange, green and red.

Don

 

[Maxx]

Kind of off the topic but since rock is the discussion. I have problems controlling soft coral growth. Every week I get a patch or two of a green and sometimes brown soft coral. They a 1/4 polyps about a 1/2 tall kind of like zenia. Since Ive never kept softies I have no clue what they are. They spread like fire, I guess if I had a softy tank this would be good. I also get zoo's growing everywhere that just appeared. They are orange, green and red.

Don

You might have to bite the bullet and buy a Regal Angel.....

Nick

 

[wrightme43]

Poor Don, LOL most people would kill to have zoos just grow every where. LOL bad grin. LOL Steve

 

[EricHugo]

Sorry to have been away - long couple of days. And, I'll get those refs soon for you guys.

Also, sorry to make ya think so early, Mike. It's past midnight here, so I'm winding down and hope I can still muster a thought or two. Only a paper to review yet before I go to bed ;-)

>>Thats not really what I was trying to say. Live rock is basically an ecosystem skewed towards bacteria, with a population of higher organisms.<<

Probably likely - but I'm not sure we know that. Chances are good though that any substrate is going to be that, though, if not in biomass then in function.

>> it is a natural effect for nutrients to be absorbed by by the critters that live with in the rock. Ex: waste/food/detritus lands on the rock and begins to be reduced by the bacteria, by products of each bacterial strain are passed down to the next level and reduced more.<<

We won't likely get reduction in aerobic zones...maybe a little. What you are describing is the decomposition process, whereby nutrients are recycled. Interestingly, detritus is one of the major components of the coral reef food web.

>> With this process coupled with population fluxes (both bacteria and higher) ,the constant enzyme production,<<

What do you mean the enzyme production? If it's a cell, of course there are enzymes working. Are you suggesting they are secreted?

>> bacterial biofilms<<

A biofilm is a very special bacterial communiyt -pretty common, but when biofilms are formed, the bacteria are largely inactive, and delegate themselves to fucntional components, almost like a muticellular organism. The word is misused a lot to mean bacterial colonies.

>> and so on it is natural for the rock to push excesses out (gravity). <<

You lost me here. How is the bacteria pushing out excess (of what?) and how is gravity involved with bacteria or their products?

>>As this material is shed from the rock it produces a food source for surface or water column life forms,<<

What material? Is this like bacteria poop or something? Dead bacteria?

>> Algae is usually johnny on the spot. I am not sure what amount of this is soluble, I would guess a small amount.
Personally I believe that Live rock can only handle a certain amount of these nutrients (food/waste/detritus) and in most cases in the home tanks it reaches a point where the nutrient/byproduct transfer rate becomes to quick or the presence of ammonia begins to reduce the ability for denitrification (Charles did a good study of this on Jeauberts system). Then you would also have to factor in the natural process of the anaerobic zones increasing in mass and decreasing the operating zone for aerobic bacteria.<<

Well, nitrification tends to be very quick and all remineralization/denitrification, reduction, etc tends to be slow, which is why you need a proportionately larger area of denitrification. As I recall, Charles looked at plenum water and found cyclical nutrients in the plenum - from low to high and back again...just like nature...but the magic wasn't the plenum but rather the sand in general, and Rob Toonen confirmed this pretty well in terms of the function of the sand bed.

You know, one way to test this is to put peices of fresh rock and old rock in a small vessel of water, wait a day, and test for nutrients - do it enough times to get some significance and see if there is an effect. I mean, if its a sink, nutrients should stay the same or go down. If a source, you'll pick t up in the water column. You would want to make sure the rock remains submerged and stirred so that there is no die off to confound things, but it would give you a general idea. Then, the speculation would be over and we would know for sure.

>>
I believe at this point food/waste/detritus begins to stack up in the processing line of the LR. Form here the hobbist begins to see more algae blooms as the cycle center has moved more towards the surface of the rock, when the algae has a edge in environment. From here cooking the rock (eliminating light) tends to allow the rock and its bacterial components to catch up on the stacked up nutrients/waste/food/detritus.
<<

Hmm, well, if you look at the literature regarding partitioning of aerobic and anaerobic zones or this type of close-coupled community interaction, I think it would suggest that it can happen this way, doesn't often happen this way, or could not happen this way depending on a lot of factors. The problem here is to assume that there is a rule-of-thumb in play, and I think the variation in tanks would make such a theory tenuous, at best. I think it could be tested, and I think it would take the volunteering of people with cess-pool tanks to step up and be examined. Thing is, you would have to look at inputs, exports, herbivory and water column nutrients and standardize it across all the systems to see what might be going on...and even then, the other factors are potentially immense. That's why I kind of tend to go with what is already known and not assume that our tanks operate differently, biologically or ecologically. You can look at places like Kaneohe Bay and then outer reef studies and get a lot of information where these sort of things have been addressed. I totally agree that you can outpace the nutrient processing abilities of a closed system, kill corals, grow algae and cyano, etc., but I am not sure that most of the common problems aquarists have with algae is because rocks are leaching nutrients out. I think more often, husbandry issues are in play.

 

[mojoreef]

What do you mean the enzyme production? If it's a cell, of course there are enzymes working. Are you suggesting they are secreted?

yea.

You lost me here. How is the bacteria pushing out excess (of what?) and how is gravity involved with bacteria or their products?What material? Is this like bacteria poop or something? Dead bacteria?

Well maybe gravity wasnt the right word, lol. Ecess would = byproducts, end products, excess unprocessed or imcomplete procesed products and simular. Stuff other then nitrogen based not used as energy. stuff like that.

You know, one way to test this is to put peices of fresh rock and old rock in a small vessel of water, wait a day, and test for nutrients - do it enough times to get some significance and see if there is an effect. I mean, if its a sink, nutrients should stay the same or go down. If a source, you'll pick t up in the water column. You would want to make sure the rock remains submerged and stirred so that there is no die off to confound things, but it would give you a general idea. Then, the speculation would be over and we would know for sure.

Yea for sure. You know thier was a couple of studys done on reefs where it showed nutrients coming from rock formations. Damm if I can find them But I was planning to look more this week

I totally agree that you can outpace the nutrient processing abilities of a closed system, kill corals, grow algae and cyano, etc., but I am not sure that most of the common problems aquarists have with algae is because rocks are leaching nutrients out. I think more often, husbandry issues are in play.

I totally agree. 9 times out of 10 its a husbandry problem and thus those should always be eliminated first. Even nutrient loading of LR or sand is a function of husbandry issues most times.


mike

 

[NaH2O]

It's late and I'm tired, but I have a couple of questions:

A biofilm is a very special bacterial communiyt -pretty common, but when biofilms are formed, the bacteria are largely inactive, and delegate themselves to fucntional components, almost like a muticellular organism. The word is misused a lot to mean bacterial colonies.

"Biofilms form when bacteria attach to surfaces. Their subsequent multiplication and production of exopolymers forms a thin layer of organic matter that works to trap nutrients from the water column and provides protection for the microorganisms living within the biofilm (van Loosdrecht et al., 1990)."

I thought biofilms were present anywhere there was a surface bacterial colony? Maybe my confusion comes about the point of bacteria within biofilms being inactive. Would the colonies be dependant on each other for survival? For instance, the end products of processes from one bacterial colony are needed by another colony, or do they all perform the same functions? Can someone explain what Eric said?

Mike - I've been trying to find some information on enzymes, and found this, but I'm not sure if it pertains to what you are talking about, or if it is more for taking in C and N:

Besides the energetic costs of uptake and transport of solutes, bacteria must invest energy in the production and excretion of extracellular enzymes used to hydrolyze polymers. A large fraction of DOC in natural aquatic systems is composed of polymeric substances that cannot be incorporated directly into bacteria. Large molecules and colloids present in the DOC pool must be acted upon by exoenzymes if they are to be utilized by bacteria (Hoppe 1991), and the hydrolysis of polymers has been suggested as the rate-limiting process for bacterial production in aquatic systems (Chrost 1990).

 

[Scooterman]

It is getting late but good reading someting is worth it

 

[EricHugo]

Here's a couple to get you guys started.

Alongi DM, Tirendi F, Goldrick A (1996) Organic matter oxidation and sediment chemistry in mixed terrigenous-carbonate sands of Ningaloo Reef, Western Australia. Marine chemistry 54: 203-219

Adjas A, Masse J-P, Montaggioni LF (1990) Fine-grained carbonates in nearly closed reef environments: Mataiva and Takapoto atolls, cantral pacific ocean. Sedimentary Geology 67: 115-132

de Vaugelas JV (1981) Organic matter distribution in the marine sediments of the Jordanian Gulf of Aqaba. Proceedings of the Fourth International Coral Reef Symposium 1: 407-410.

Entsch B, Boto KG, Sim RG, Wellington JT (1983) Phosphorus and nitrogen in coral reef sediments. Limnology and Oceanography 28: 465-476

Aller RC, Rude PD (1986) Anoxic oxidation of sulfides in marine sediments. Eos 67: 996

Blackburn TH (1986) Nitrogen cycle in marine sediments. Ophelia 26: 65-76

Johnstone RW, Koop K, Larkum AWD (1990) Physical aspects of coral reef lagoon sediments in relaion to detritus processing and primary production. Marine Ecology Progress Series 66: 273-283

Alongi DM (1988) Detritus in coral reef ecosystems: fluxes and fates. Proceedings of the 6th International Coral Reef Symposium 1: 29-36.

Di Salvo L Some aspects of the regenerative function and microbial ecology of coral reefs Microbbial Ecology of Coral Reefs (pp 67-69)

Matson, E.A. 1985. Anoxic catabolism in the shallow carbonate muds of Bermuda. Proc. 5th Int. Coral Reef Symp. 3: 422-7.

Moriarty, D.J.W., et. al. 1985. Microbial Biomass and productivity in seagrass beds. Geomicrobiology J. 4(1): 21-51.

Williams, S.L., I.P. Gill, and S.M. Yarish. 1985. Nitrogen cycling in backreef sediments. Proc 5th Int. Coral Reef Symp. 3: 389-94.


Wiebe, W.J. 1985. Nitrogen dynamics on coral reefs. Proc. 5th Int. Coral Reef Symp. 3: 401-6.

Skyring, G.W. 1985. Anaerobic microbial processes in coral reef sediments. Proc. 5th Int. Coral Reef Symp. 3: 421-5.

Romankevich, Evgenni. 1984. Geochemistry of Organic Matter in the Ocean. Springer-Verlag, Moscow: 334 pp.

Scoffin, Vince P., and Alexander W. Tudhope. 1985. Sedimentary environments of the central region of the Great Barrier Reef. Coral Reefs. 4: 81-93.

Seitzinger, Sybil P. and Christopher F. D'Elia. 1983. Preliminary studies of denitrification on a coral reef. The Ecology of Deep and Shallow Coral Reefs. Symp. Series for Undersea Research, NOAA. 1: 199-208.

Shashar, N., et. al. 1994. Nitrogen fixation (acetylene reduction) on a coral reef. Coral Reefs. 13: 171-4.


Ogden, John C. 1988. The influence of adjacent systems on the structure and function of coral reefs. Proc. 6th Int. Coral Reef Symp. 1: 123-9.

Ogden, John C., and J.C. Zieman. 1977. Ecological aspects of coral reef- seagrass bed contacts in the Caribbean. Proc. 3rd Int. Coral Reef Symp. pp. 377-82.

Oren, Aharon, and Thomas. H. Blackburn. 1979. Estimation of sediment denitrification rates at in situ nitrate concentrations. Appl Env Microbiol 37(1): 174-6.


www.int-res.com/abstracts/ame/v24/n1/p17-26.html

www.icm.csic.es/scimar/PDFs/sm68n4483.pdf

Dissolved Carbon in Pore Waters from the Carbonate Barrier Reef of Tahiti (French Polynesia) and Its Basalt Basement
Authors: FICHEZ R.1; HARRIS P.2; CAUWET G.3; DEJARDIN P.4
Source: Aquatic Geochemistry, 1997, vol. 2, no. 3, pp. 255-271(17)
Publisher: Kluwer Academic Publishers


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www.botany.hawaii.edu/Bot482/ Kaneohe%20Bay%20algae%20N-P%20Larned%20Mar%20Biol.pdf

www.springerlink.com/index/Q288586414510151.pdf

MEPS 239:277-285 (2002)
Effect of reef framework and bottom sediment on nutrient enrichment in a coral reef of the Gulf of Aqaba, Red Sea. Mohammed Rasheed1,2,*, Mohammad I. Badran2, Claudio Richter3, Markus Huettel1

Froelich, Alina Szmant. 1985. Functional aspects of nutrient cycling on coral reefs. The Ecology of Coral Reefs: Symp. Ser. for Undersea Research, NOAA. 3: 133-9.