Lets Talk About ~Filtration Concepts~

[CarlaW]

I have not changed any mud at all in the system that it is working in. Things seem to be just fine as far as all my parameters go.
I can remember to change water tho After the initial shock to the wallet, I guess that was enuf!!!! That stuff is expensive!!!!!

 

[reedman]

What about fluidized sand filters? Any thought on their effectiveness on a reef system?

On shallow sand beds (if we are there now) how effective do you think sand sifting gobies are at stirring the sand and keeping detritus in suspension?

 

[Scooterman]

I have two Engineer gobies, ready to remove them from my system. When I had a DSB they would tunnel everywhere under the rocks but now they are cornered without much sand to dig in.

 

[reedman]

Hey Sccoterman,
Sorry to hear you are going to remove the engineer gobies. They seem like very cool fish, but I understand your reasoning.

It is my impression that there are many different species of sand sifting gobies that do just that...sift sand. I am curious if this, in combination with good water flow at all levels, is a viable solution to keeping detritus in suspension in a tank with a shallow sand bed.

 

[Scooterman]

In my experience a thin bed isn't enough for the gobies, in the DSB even as much as they moved it wasn't enough by far. In the thin bed they hardly ever move like before. The back of my tank is bare, I have some rubble up front, so they have nothing to play in. Each fish has grown to over 6" in length, they are very cool but after the last one eating my new fire shrimp @ 36 or 38 bucks, i decided they need a better home, as with most of the other fish in my tank. I will also try and remove a sailfin & 6 line. I'm looking at keeping the Regal, I can't part with him. Later I'd like to get another fairy wrasse.

 

[mojoreef]

Scott why don't you do a little write up on shallow sand beds for us.



Mike

 

[bubba654]

NaH2o The 1/2 Mud change Is what is recomended by my LFS. I still have no practicle knowlege My system has been set up for a week.
Any Hints Tips or Suggestions From You the staff Or the Peanut gallery would be greatly appreicated.

 

[NaH2O]

bubba, I'm not exactly sure why the mud needs to be replaced every so often, but I think it may have to do with the iron in the mud. The iron is utilized by macros for growth, and the mud would become depleted in iron over time. For the mud to continue to function as designed, it would have to be replaced. Make sense?

 

[Scooterman]

Well, don't know how helpful I can be but I'll give it a shot. I've seen thin beds years & years ago; they were accompanied by an elaborate mechanical filtration system. I never seen LR in these systems, usually they had a few pieces of bleached or colored rocks. These systems required lots of constant cleaning, water replacement was about 50% a month in some cases & only NSW was used. Can you imagine that, at a 1$ or $1.50 a gallon. Thin beds weren't very popular as the plenum or UG filter system but these were part of the continued evolution of reefing. I have a thin bed, or actually part rubble bed; it is used solely for aesthetic reasons & a little for the gobies. I'm sure it contributes to the minor algae I get from time to time but with a limited reef such as mine it isn't difficult to keep. On the back side of my tank I have a 900gph pump blowing straight across the bottom (that is my closed loop LOL) I don't have much corals to cover up the rock work and lower front sections as most people with BB do (reason why because I want a bigger tank & fish room/wall). Ok, so I have to adjust my choirs according the thin bed, one is more vacuuming, I have to cover the front well or else I get algae to show up, it takes more work to get everything sucked up, it requires a through cleaning every few weeks (about a month on mine), because keeping particulate in suspension becomes even more difficult here, I also have a Tunze stream cranking out 1,800gph on the top section, it is programmed to pulse from high to mid power ever few seconds. This along with a small maxi and another 900gph return to keep things flowing helps. I have to be honest, the rubble bed is one big trap, if you don't keep it moving it will hold everything, I also use phosphate remover, and skim wet as I can. I honestly don't believe you will get much process from a thin bed as such a DSB, & you can go 1 or 2 inches with fine sand & probably would do some nitrification processing but here again I agree it would probably fill up rather quickly, my thin bed is just that thin enough to cover the bottom only. This system is the begging of a new and improved BB/Berlin type system.

 

[NaH2O]

The first thing I want to try to understand is what depth is considered a shallow sand bed. I believe DSB is 4-8 inches in depth, so I would think that a shallow sand bed would be 1-3 inches? Since nitrification takes place in the upper inch or so of a DSB....then a SSB would also nitrify. How much emphasis is on bugs/critters? Does a shallow sand bed perform as a recycling center, too? Hmmm....wouldn't it become saturated sooner than a DSB?

 

[SueT]

Hi Mike, I don't know what I can add about the ecosystem mud filteration. In dealings with mine, Leng Sy said replacement of 1/3 of the mud bed every 18-24 months depending on fish/coral bio-load was suggested. In my 180g I had been doing that.

In the last 2 months or so I had also been experiencing super nutrient excess to the point of having to scrape my glass like 2 times daily. Plus the fact I'm obsessive about clean glass. I started doing weekly 10g water changes and still could not find the culprit. So I emailed Mike Paletta and he suggested something in this bed may have died and started leaching into the water. His suggestion "get it out". So I did. I also added a skimmer which with a mud bed you're supposedly not needing to use. I have never seen such gunk. The water already has so much more clarity than in a long time. All this while tests were testing out at 0.

I actually believe if I had used a skimmer with the set up of my 180g this may not have happened. I am not a "no mud bed" fanatic now but to me it seems after a mud bed reaches a maturity of say 3 years as mine did it needs help in still being able to do what they are intended to do. My caulerpa was not thriving in the mud bed and seemed to be doing nothing more than catching and accumulating algae on the blades. I still think a ecosystem mud bed is a viable alternative to reef systems but I am wondering in long term useage how this is going to affect the overall health of a reef system. I have a friend here in Houston who has a 200g sps system that has a 5 year old mud bed, never changed out any portion and runs a skimmer and we could all hope to have such a nice sps tank.

Hope I helped some Mike.

 

[RGibson]

Would 15 changes per hour be a good water flow for a DBS or even higher it would make the DBS last longer. Allso the largest skimmer you can buy will allso help , most protein skimmers sold are to small for the tanks thay are put in. RGibson

 

[Scooterman]

, Leng Sy said replacement of 1/3 of the mud bed every 18-24 months depending on fish/coral bio-load was suggested. In my 180g I had been doing that.

I have a friend here in Houston who has a 200g sps system that has a 5 year old mud bed, never changed out any portion and runs a skimmer and we could all hope to have such a nice sps tank.

I have to comment on this, one from everything I've read replacement of Half each year was necessary, dependent on your bio-load you may need to change out more often on the average system.

Second: On the 5 year mud 200g, skimming would help out greatly but even so, he may not have much load wise as for as fish etc, or he is changing out water very regular with lots of export, vacuuming etc. In either case, I agree you can make any system work, for that long or longer but steps has to be made to do so.

 

[SueT]

Scooterman, I'd like to know where you saw that as the LFS in Houston that is the Ecosystem distributor{plus my friend and designer of my 180g} does all his maintenance systems including mine on the 18-24 month schedule. He has always said that plus what I've read and via emails with Leng Sy it has always been the 18-24 month deal. Less than 18 months and you're still using good mud and it would basically be a waste to change it out more often, especially if you'd be doing half.

I agree certain things can always be made to work using differing methodologies. His setting up a skimmer from the beginning with his ecosystem, schedule of water changes, etc. His does happen to have a fairly large number of fish and large ones at that.

 

[NaH2O]

I read on the Miracle Mud website to exchange 50% every 2 years. Sue, do you think if there is a lot of macro growth it would begin depleting the mud sooner than 18 months?

Hey RGibson!! Welcome to Reef Frontiers!

 

[SueT]

Hi Nikki, hey, thats a good question. All I can say is what I've experienced. In the first 2 years of my 180g I only kept a small bit of caulerpa in the mud bed. This was just due to not planting more. Why, I guess cause things in that tank did so awesome. Maybe that was a mistake too, I don't know.

Then as the third year rolled around things started to go downhill. I ended up planting the heck out of that mud bed with a different type of macro. By this time I don't know what contributed to the downward spiral of the water quality. We still don't even know what died if anything, to start the mud bed to going bad. I know that when I was scooping it out it had no bad smell to it. Something I was worried about...

I will say I think Leng must have changed the mud bed schedules on me. I haven't been on that site in a long time.:eek2:

 

[RGibson]

Hey Nikki i used to live Hammond Ind a long time ago need to go back some day. RGibson 30 years playing with water.

 

[mojoreef]

Sue thanks a ton for answering my request for you posting about ecosystems, I know you have done alot of work with Leng Sy on the MM systems.
I have a question for ya. when you did the swap out di you remove all the mud and dont use it anymore?? And one more. when you removed it was the problem solved or did it linger on??

MIke

 

[Scooterman]

Hey Sue, nothing I said was pertaining to the Houston area but I read up on it on that site about a year ago. I also read the package label at My LFS, it basically had a system of how much to use per 25g or 50g etc & how often 50% should be removed. The store owner has two tanks with the MM system in place, one with a skimmer & the other without, If he will let, I'll try and snap some pics of the two tanks & we all can take a closer look, If he is willing.

 

[SueT]

Hi Mike, when I didn't know what else to do I emailed Mike Paletta. He has helped me so much with questions I've had about ecosystems over the years and I treasure his wisdom above all. He said for me to "get the mud out". So I did. I removed all of it I could reach. What is left is a small amount in the 2 far corners. Basically 95% is gone. I also have never ran a skimmer on this tank and had one donated to me to try. I put that skimmer in right after getting the mud out and letting the water clear.

That skimmer is removing gunk like crazy. After the first 12 hours on, I had to clean the collection cup. Now I'm cleaning it every 2 days and the cup is about 1/3 full. Real good stuff coming out of this tank. I just dumped the mud as I had no further use for it. Mike actually thought something in it may have gone bad, thus the water quality issue I was having. I would definitely say the water is doing much better now with the mud out. The clarity is 100% better. No where near the algae collecting on the glass or on corals/rocks. So I would say the problem is resolving.

Scooterman, I had not been on the Ecosystemaquarium site in a while as my LFS being a distributor I went by what he was doing with his maintenance systems. He was talking to Leng or those at Ecosystem weekly about orders and stuff and he never mentioned the change in mud replacement. I was going by what we had done since the tank was set up. My old 120g we even switched over to an ecosystem about 2 years ago.

Amazing changes also happened in that reef with the chanage from heavily skimmed to none within 24 hours. It has done great. It is now and has been a FOWLR for about a year now, and is soon to be replaced with a frag system. Now I pulled as to whether to run it with the current ecosystem sump or yank it for a plain sump with skimmer. Either way it will definitely have a skimmer.