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Bob i need to know your salinity level to??

Reed great question. I am not saying to not use kalk, kalk is a great way to add calcium and alk to your system. What I was trying to show was that using kalk to take P out of the system is not really a viable system for the removal of P, it just puts it on hold for a bit and then its back in. Its ok just dont rely on it. Was that what you were asking??

You say "if you have inorganic phosphates in your tank you want them to get bound up by organics so you can skim them out and be done with. "I agree, but how do you get them to bind with organics so that we can remove them. It seems to me that in a closed system it is pretty difficult to remove items that want to bind with things in our tanks.
Another good one, your on a role, lol Inorganic P is food, everthing in the tank wants a peice of it, bacteria.algae/corals and so on. Elements also want to bind with it, but the binds are not as strong as the organic forms. I will ive you an example. You throw in some food, the food has inorganic P in it (as it is dead and dead=inorganic, lol) The fish swallows the food, so now the inorganic is organic as the fish is going to use some. but the fish poops, animals usually poop out 90% of what they eat and keep the balance. So now the poop becmes inorganic once more. First one on the spot is bacteria, they surround it and begin the reducing feast, So right now you have an oppertunity to remove not only the inorganic form but all that bacteria which has alot of organic P bound up inside itself. Good flow and a good skimmer (along with other types of filtration if wanted) will remove both the inorganic P poop and the organic P bacteria associated. A double win for the P reduction in your tank.
Now just to side track that example for a moment and relay it to a DSb type filter and you can see that instead of exporting it via a skimmer, the inorganic P Poop goes into the bed and is taken in by bacteria and algae to form organic P. Now that bed never gives it back, it just keeps cycling the P from say organically bound P in bacteria to Inorganic P when they die, then back to organic P when the algae sucks it up then back to Inorganic form when the algae dies. the never ending and always expanding P cycle.

How about using baking soda/washing soda to maintain/increase your Alk levels? Any thoughts on that one?
Sure, great way to suppliment your alk. Take 1 part washing soda (Na2CO3) and 6 to 8 parts baking soda (NaHCO3), and 1 tsp of this powder in 25 gal seawater will raise your alk by 5 dKh or 90PPM. Sodium Carbonate can actually be prepared in a kitchen oven by spreading the powder out on a sheet and baking it for a few hrs at around 250F, This drives off a molecule of water and of Carbon Dioxide to leave a molecule of Na2CO3 from 2 molecules of NaHCO3. The advantage of the mixture is the lack of sudding fluctuation in pH seen when using NaHO3 alone.


Mike
 
Eliyah natural levels of calcium are based on your salinity, so tell me that and I can tell you what the level should be.
 
Mike, my salinity is at 1.025. This is measured with a refractometer.

So what say you about the level of Ca I should have in my tank to match that?

Eliyah
 
Wow, thanks Mike. This past weekend I tested and it was at 385, but since I was going off of bad info I assumed I should raise it to 410ish so I dosed some straight liquid calcium to bring it up. I have been dripping kalk for the last 3 weeks, and it's helping to maintain all levels in the tank. It's now good to know that I can let it fall a little and things will be perfect.

Eliyah
 
Mike, are the levels you are calling 'balanced', considered optimal. In otherwords, using the marbels in a bucket example, if you increase your cal. above that level does one of the other substances reduce by an equivilent amaount?

I love the chemistry talks :p
 
mike is there a site we can get the proper levels info from to coralate with each other, or how are you figuring these levels out as they relate to each other ? John
 
yeah but that calculator doesn't take into account salinity though as mike was doing. i'm wondering where he is getting that information. i'm running my salinity about 1.026, temp is 80, alk is 10, calcium is 420/430 and now i'm wondering if this is in line with my salinity and should i have my salinity this high?
 
Eliyah you dont have to be dead on, close is fine. Its just alot of folks will run calcium levels really high thinking that it is doing them good when its really not the best approach to take.

Fisherman you should be able to do a search on the web for saltwater contents. here are some guidelines you can follow also.
>At a salinity of 35ppt or 1.027 your cal should be 415
>at a salinity of 30ppt or 1.023 your cal would be 14% less so 357~
From thier its just math.

Matt seawater elemental ammounts are pretty easy to find on the web, so no secret thier. Seawater is also Ionically balance, everything is in proportion to each other that is also and easy find. We know that salinity is just the sum of all the elements right, so 35000 parts = SW. So now it just becomes math. What percentage less is 30000 to 35000???? about 14%, so then since all is ionically balanced, its pretty easy to figure out.

Reed the levels I am talking about are balanced levels of natural seawater. I would assume since corals seem to do pretty good out thier that one could call them optimal???? :lol:
(that one was for the blues, hehehe)

Nikki good calculator

Big thing to remember, Natural Seawater is already saturated with calcium, alk, magnesium and so on. Do we need to push the point of saturation to percipatation?????



Mike
 
So really it is just a matter of keeping the Ca, ALK, Mag, etc. all balanced according to what your salinity (ppt) is AND knowing what your particular system's consumption is. That way you can supplement what your system needs, rather than trying to guess what the correct levels are (i.e. thinking a Ca level of 450 is great and wanting to keep the level that high and trying to balance alk, mag, etc..to that level)?
 
and one Ca++ combines with that one CO2 molecule

Mike, I thought it took two Carbonate ions with one Ca ion (and that's why Carbonate is limiting? I'm not cheating and looking this up, am going by memory, so maybe wrong.
Also, since there's usually plenty of carbonate around in the tank, is it really limiting?
 
CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O <-> Ca2+ + 2(HCO3-) GAAAA - I'm making an attempt to do a chemical equation and it isn't working. Just thought I'd let you see why Chemistry was not my strong suit...hmmm...maybe it's right?...Professor? lol Sheesh, maybe if I sat in the front in my Chemistry Lectures I could get it down.
 
good information......i think it just clicked in my head after reviewing some charts/etc. of NSW and it's makeup. something i thought was so complicated is actually pretty simple. ugh!
 
mike am i right that at a sal. 35ppt, calc 415, alk. 2.5-3.5 that which i believe is nat sea water that my mag s/b 1290 ppm? which i have read is nat. sae wtr levels ?
 
TG I think your thinking more on what going on in the surroundng seawater then what is happening with in the corals cell structure.

The reason carbonate is the true limiter is that with out it the coral would die of calcium poisening. the carbonate allows the process discribe previously to occur.

Nikki pretty much dead on. If you stop for a moment and think about it. for millions of years corals have evolved to take advantage of thier surrounding, including the elements they bath/breathe in, why would we want to to screw with that?? It would be like God saying hey look at those humans, you feed them food and they grow,Hmmmm lets saturated them and make them eat as much food as they can with out dieing lol. what do you end up with??? besides me lol

Matt it is all pretty easy, unless you make it really difficult, ;)

Fisherman looks pretty good to me


Mike
 
sorry for the long post

I have a DSB in my display tank. I know it will eventually need major maintenance so my original plan was to get it out of the display tank and put it in a 200 gallon sump. In that way, I could turn off the flow to the sump...do my major maintenance...do a complete water change of the water that was sitting in the sump....and then re-connect the sump to the display tank. I even designed complex systems to ensure that the detritus was moved to the sump for processing by the DSB. I was doing this knowing that I would continue to have to do minor maintenance often and periodically do my major maintenance. Then after talking with some friends I decided to start following KISS. I really can't get into all of the blood spitting or crazy make-up, but boy could they wail on their guitars. Oops...Sorry. Had a little brain burp there. I meant Keep It Simple Stupid.

I'm dripping Kalk to precipitate the phosphates to the sand bed. Then I break all of the sand bed rules. Weekly, I make a royal mess of things...I purposely disturb the upper layer of my sandbed with a freshwater gravel vacuum siphon attachment. I do have a sulphide zone in the back left corner of my tank so I don't go near that. At the same time I'm doing this, I'm turkey basting my LR which is making an even bigger mess.

Knowing that it will be several months before I can yank by DSB, what do you recommend I change for the "in the mean time" maintenance? Should I continue to drip Kalk and then get it out of my sandbed or should I leave it in suspension?
 

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