Live rock help

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71lockard

71lockard

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
99
Location
Reno, NV. USA
Hi, I'm very new to reef systems. I have purchased a 90 gal. tank. and have had it going for 3 weeks now. I purchased 100 lbs. live sand and 90 lbs. of Fiji live rock based on my local dealers recommendations.

I have some concern over the placement of the live rock in the tank. I have read quite a bit on-line and at the library. The more recent information suggests that you do not stack live rock up against the back of tank, due to detritus accumulation and a possible avalanche, etc.

Attached are a couple of photos of my set-up. I have avoided touching the glass with the rock, there is at least 2-3" inches between the glass and rock anywhere in the tank. But, I don't feel very comfortable with the way it looks yet. I have observed several tanks photos and I think I have too little rock for this tank. It seems like I have to much space up top, none of the rock comes any closer than 6-7" to the top. Your thoughts and advice are appreciated...

Thanks,
Tony
DSC00950.JPG

DSC00952.JPG
 
Take this information as my opinion only. You may be right about needing a little more LR. There is a certain percentage of LR according to tank size that is supposedly the ideal amount of LR to have in the tank. Somone else might chime in here and know what that amount is.

As far as not having any of the LR on your glass goes, I don't think it would be a problem to have some of the rock touching the back glass. I use the back glass on my tank to help support the rock in a few places. What a lot of people may be talking about is not to stack the rock completely up against the glass to make it where water cannot flow behind the rock. As long as you leave some sort of space for water movement you will be okay with leaning some parts of the rock up against the glass. If you are running a sump you can always put some LR in there also. I have about 20 lbs. in my sump and only about 80 lbs. in my tank which is a 110.

You have to think long term about what you want your tank to look like if you are planning on adding corals down the road. Right now your rock may look as if there is not enough in there. Remember though that your corals will grow and take up some of that space at the top of your rocks also. The arrangement you have set up in your tank looks fine to me, but I would want to have it set further back against the glass if it were mine. Aquascaping is probably the hardest part of setting up my tank that I encountered. It took me 3 days to finally decide that's where I wanted everything. I kind of wished I had left it the way it was the first day I finished it, but I couldn't rearrange it back the way I had it. Hope this helps.
 
You want to have 1-2lbs of live rock per gallon.

I have a 90 with 160 lbs of live rock and its all stacked against the back glass. As for your problem of not having the rock high enough you could do this one of to two ways. The cheap way or the not so cheap way. The not so cheap way would be to buy the live rock and just stack it up. The cheap way is this: go to a mernards or home depot or any big hardware store. In the fluorescent lighting section they sell this stuff called egg crate. Which is a plastic cover for fluorecent lighting with small 1/2" squares. Buy one of these and some plastic ties(i think thats what they are called). Any ways cut four equal length pieces out of the egg crate and make a tunnel out of it tieing it all together with the plastic ties. Then place it against the back wall of the tank with with the live rock stacked on top giving you a few extra inches in height and your fish a tunnel to swim through behing the rocks.

To keep any nasty stuff from building up in the back of your tank just have a powerhead blow behind the rocks.
 
I agree with hopper...It is said to have atleast 1-2lbs per gal for biological filtration and denitrification (I'd lean more towards the 2lb per gal). The more LR the better IMO. About leaning the rocks against the glass, it is not the best way to go as you said, because of ditritus accumilation as it would be hard to get back there to siphon and also can cause flow issues. I did it the first time I set up and boy did I regret it. As for your setup so far, I like they way you have things setup...Good luck with the rest of it
 
Actually in my opinion, I think you have done well. It looks good. Also you may find corals and such to buy that are already attached to Live Rock that will add to your pile there aswell. If you want to re-scape it you can use other methods to spread your rock more. You can stand them and make larger gaps between the rock and put them closer to the back glass. I would attach the rocks together some how if you do that though. You can glue them with super glue, Drill holes and use zip ties, or drill them and add acrylic dowling pegs to attach them in the places you want them to stay. Here is a thread that has an absolutely awsome set up, useing these methods.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144

There is alot more about it here aswell
http://www.mojoreef.info/
 
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Having good flow between your rock aquascaping is always best, I think the ammount you have and the way you have scaped it looks great and should do a good job for ya. Natural biological filtration is a very slow and ineffective means of filtration so adding a ton of rock is not going to do that much for you in that regards. Try to practice good husbandry as much as you can and then use the natural filtration for the final polishing


Mike
 
Welcome to Reef Frontiers!!!

I agree with trying to maintain good flow all around your rock. I personally think your aquascaping looks really good, and you have some nice pieces of LR there. If you aren't happy with it, you can try and use the egg crate, as suggested earlier, to create an elevated platform to place the LR on, then hide the support pieces with other rock. Some folks make platforms out of PVC pipe, and again, hide the pieces with more LR. It just depends on how you want it to look. I used zip ties to hold my aquascaping together in unique shapes, ledges, and overhangs. I know a couple of people that used the acrylic dowels to make some really neat shapes that aren't possible with stacking. Play around a bit, and see what you can come up with. If you do think you would like to play around a bit with the live rock, then try and picture what you want it to look like before hand, then look at the shapes you have available and how you can make it work.

Hope this helps!
 
It is starting to grow on me the more I look at it. The only thing I am considering is moving the whole structure back a little. Based on everyone's feedback - sounds like I did ok. I have been trying to imagine it fuller with coral, etc...

As for filtration and equipment - I have the 90 lbs. of live rock and 100 lbs. of sand. I have the CPR Bak-Pak 2 w/ RIO 600RV. It has the nylon spool. I also have two AquaClear 50's with the power head attachments. Each can pump 270 gph (according to the box). I have a Hydor THEO 300w heater.

My local dealer has recommended that I do a 30-50% water change every two-weeks.

I have been testing almost daily:

Temp. - 78 F
Ph - 8.2
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 10ppm

Does it sound like I have the right stuff and I'm on the right track? My dealer sold me this stuff called "AZ-NO3" Absolute Zero -Nitrates ($20.00!!??). I have not used it yet and I am hesitant to do so based on some stuff I read later that day. It sounds like many in the hobby lean toward more frequent water changes and not using chemical enhancements to reduce nitrate levels? Does that sound right? I also think the nitrate may be elevated because of the following...

He also sold me 10 snails and 10 hermit crabs - 4 days ago, as a clean-up crew. One of each died that day. I found the crab immediately; however, the snail got pulled into the rocks and I could not get him out. The other crabs and some very, very tiny larva /shrimp looking things (from the rock?) ate him. Only the shell is left, as far as I can tell. I wish I knew what happened, we felt a little guilty. All of the others seem very happy and are very busy on the rock. I have also found two "mushroom" hitch-hikers. I bought some plankton and they seem happy too.

Anyway, I could go on for days, my 8 year old daughter and I have spent countless hours so far just watching the rock! It is really amazing and fun to enjoy the whole process. We are going to do a 50% water change today. More to come...

Thanks to all!

Tony
 
Tony, if I read everything correctly, right now you only have 2 powerheads rated at 270gph each? If that is the case you are going to need a lot more flow. I don't think 2 powerheads rated at 540 total will be enough to move around detritus even with proper placement IMO (ie if that is all you have for flow).

As for water changes, it is totally up to you on how much you want to change. Some people do them monthly some weekly. Me personally, I prefer to change about 15% per week than 50% one time as with the big water changes, sometimes it tends to change you waters parameters too quickly IMO if you don't heat or cool he new water to match that of the tank. Think about it this way, your tank is sitting at 75 degrees and you add 50% of 90 degree water, it will change up thinks quite a bit and may cause stress on the tanks inhabitants. That is only my preferences though and doesn't mean my way is right. I rather change smaller amount and not have to sit and wait for the temps to match before adding it.

Are you planning on adding a sump/fuge or do you have one already? Just wanted to throw out a few thoughts to you. If you don't have one maybe you should consider on getting one...They are very useful...
 
Krish, No, I don't have a sump/fuge yet. Will I need that set-up. Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly will that get me.

I can add additional pumps, if you think its a good idea. About how much would be recommended for this 90gal?

My dealer suggested that I use my old freshwater 35 gal. as a quarantine tank sometime soon. What do you think? Can I use that tank to enhance my new system in other ways?

Also, my hydrometer has been reading a little low, 1.019, that should be corrected with the water change, right? Is that how you would correct that problem?

Thanks again,
Tony
 
Krish, No, I don't have a sump/fuge yet. Will I need that set-up. Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly will that get me.
Click to expand...

LOL...It's not ignorance. We are all still learning here...Myself included.
With a sump, for one will give you the extra water volume which is good as it is better for stability in a tank. That is why you always hear "the bigger the tank, the better" or "dilution is the solution to pollution"(just look at the ocean for example). One example of a benefit is a heater malfunctioning in say a 125 gal tank, it would take londer to show any change in temperature in comparison to a 55 gal (just one of many examples) Also, this is a place to keep probes, heaters etc out of sight instead of in the tank taking up space etc. They are usually connected to an overflow which skimms the surface of your water keeping it clean and aggitated (with ripples) for good oxygen/carbon dioxide exchange to take place. The water has to be returned to the tank from the sump, so this is usually a good place to add flow as most sumps usually use 500-800 gph pumps to return water. Another good thing about a sump is you can use it as a place to keep a macro algae to help out with nutrient export which will keep nuicance algae to a mininmum in the tank...and on and on. Endless possibilities.

I can add additional pumps, if you think its a good idea. About how much would be recommended for this 90gal?
Click to expand...

Well, the main thing is proper flow. You want to keep detritus/debris in suspension for your filters to pick up and also to keep your rocks clean. Detritus sitting on a rock too long is inviting algae to grow so you want enough flow placed properly to keep these things from happening. Also, with some corals, they need good flow to bring their food to them. I had 2,000 gph of flow in my first 90gal setup and it still wasn't enough for me. I have almost 3,000 now and will still add more. However, because I need that much doesn't necessarily mean you need that much. What I usually do is throw a pinch of flakes into the tank and see where the pumps take it to find out where any dead spots are that may need flow.

My dealer suggested that I use my old freshwater 35 gal. as a quarantine tank sometime soon. What do you think? Can I use that tank to enhance my new system in other ways?
Click to expand...

Some people use tanks as refugiums/sumps and just add in the chambers so it can be used to enhance your system. You would be beeter off than me as my sump only hold about 15 gals of water...You'll have 35!

Also, my hydrometer has been reading a little low, 1.019, that should be corrected with the water change, right? Is that how you would correct that problem?
Click to expand...

Well, you can add salt to the tank anytime. If you have fish and corals in there you wouldn't want the salinity to jump too quickly. However, if your tank is empty, you could just keep adding the salt (letting it settle for a while) and then read it until you get it to where you want it. After that, with water changes you can mix the correct salt dosage per gal and when topping off evaporated water you could just add freshwater as the salt won't evporate. Hope I helped you out a bit...
 
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krish75 said:
Hope I helped you out a bit...
Click to expand...


A ton! I will begin researching the sump/fuge set-ups out there. I would not really want it in the same room where I have my new tank. Maybe I can run the plumbing through the wall or something. I won't need the heater and mechanical bio-filter in the main tank anymore with that set-up? Sounds like a great idea. Especially since I have that 35gal. already...

Do you think adding salt while the snails/crabs are in there will hurt them? I don't want to kill anymore...

Thanks!

Tony
 
Glad I helped someone for a change...I'm usually the one who needs the help(LOL). About the heater, it is the same as keeping in the tank as in the sump. Water still has to pass by it in the sump. Like with my tank, my return pump from my sump to the tank pumps 700gph. So that would mean every hour, 700 gallons of water would have drained into my sump and the same 700 would have been returned backto the tank. You can check out some cool filtration setups in the general forum which I started a thread showing a lot of different sump and filtration setups and ideas. I'll post the link when I find it. As for bio-filtration, your rocks in the tank will do some of the work and whatever you plan on putting in the sump will help also (along with your skimmer)

About the salt, I'm not sure how sensitive snail and crabs are so I would raise it slowly and give them time to adjust. Me personally, I've never raised more than (what I call) 2 points at a time. So at 1.019, I'd raise it to 1.021 and leave it for a couple of hours and then so on. You may be able to raise it quicker than that, but I'm not totally sure...

I'll go look for that link for you...
 
Krish - thanks again, that thread is very helpful. Will I need to start over to do a sump/fuge set-up? Meaning, will I have to drain the tank and drill holes for the plumbing, etc? Are there systems that do not require through-the-wall designs? I will keep reading and looking around.

Tony
 
No prob. Is your tank glass or acrylic? If it is glass chances are it can't be drilled so you would have to get an overflow to hang on the back of the tank...Something like what I have by CPR which is one of the common ones. Here is a description and pic http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...&Product_Code=CS100&Category_Code=CPROverflow

You don't have to go through the wall if you don't want. My sump sits in my stand and isn't loud at all. In fact, not very many people at all do the through the wall thing. When you get into putting sumps in another room, the pumps get a little more pricey as they have to pump a little further in most cases. Only the big dogs like Mike, Alberto etc have their stuff in another room and it's probably because they have so much equipment that it would never fit in a stand. Good luck...I'm sure you will get it all sorted out.
 
Starting to make more sense, plenty of info for me to read and catch up on out there. It is a glass tank, so the overhang looks perfect. The only reason I was thinking through the wall is because of the stand, here take a look:

DSC00961.JPG


The room on the other side of the wall is my home office / storage area.

Anyway, as you said I'm sure I will figure out a good plan and I can go from there. Thanks again for all of your time and the great links!

Tony
 
No problem Tony. I see what you mean now. No space underneath. I love the look though. It's really neat! I just added a full tank shot of my tank, stand and canopy to my thread (Krish's Bahamian inspired 90 gal) It also shows my filtration setup so far if you want to check it out.

Are you putting a background on your tank? If so, you could probably squeeze a hang on refugium to your tank to keep a macro-algae in there if you decide to go that route it nutrient export. You won't see it if you have a background on your tank and they don't take up too much space. Here is a link to one incase you haven't seen one before. They are relatively cheap and come in different sizes. HTH http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...D&Product_Code=CPR-RF24&Category_Code=Special
 
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