Live rock questions

[Slickdonkey]

I'm in the process of setting up a reef tank (240g) for the first time and have a few questions about live rock:

- Do you save much by buying uncured rock and curing it yourself over the course of a few weeks?
- What are the pros and cons of the different types of rock? I see lots of different kinds available.
- Are the mail-order outfits much cheaper for large quantities? If so, which have the best rock and reputations?
- How do you search the rocks for unwanted critters like mantis shrimp before dumping it in the tank?
- How much rock do you recommend? I've seen recommendations all over the spectrum.
- For those living in Western Washington (a large number of you, apparently), which local shops typically have the best stuff?

Brian

 

[kcharm]

From what I gather, many lfs don't charge you any different. Also, many people will tout cooking live rock (do a search, it has nothing to do with the oven).

I've always heard about a pound a gallon for rock, give or take.

The 2 best shops in the area are Saltwater City in Bellevue and Blue Sierra in Issaquah. I wish I could chose one over the other but they're both great.

Wish I had more answers, but, I'm not much more advanced then you. I really just wanted to give kudos to my lfss.

 

[jamiehill]

I hear the Shark Reef over on the peninsula gets great rock in. I am not sure about the prices though.

 

[joshinjosh]

-i personally like uncured rock, because there's a lot more coralline and hitchikers and it's slightly cheaper. However, the downside i can think of is the chance of harmful hitchikers (but some websites guarentee no mantis and such) and there's the time period of waiting.
-essentially there are no real distinct pros and cons to types of lr, they're all just different in shapes. pukani seems to be a favorite when it comes to shape and that tampa bay live rock seem to be a favorite for hitchhikers.
-i don't believe any online live rock vender gives any discounts for larger purchases due to their already low rates per pounds; however the shipping is a bit expensive. purchasing online can be cheaper if you turn to slower shipping methods, but you will get lot's of die off and very few hitchhikers.
-i'm not quite sure how you will search lr before putting it into your tank. but when the live rock is in your tank, night time is when hitchikers come out to play. you can take a flashlight at night and search your tank.
-the ammount depends on many things like the density of the lr, the amount of space you want to fill, etc. 1lb/gallon is plenty in a 240, but the more the merrier. any extra can go in a sump or something.
-a couple week ago blue sierra had really nicely shaped live rock (i think it was pukani) in thier live rock tanks and newly installed curing vats, but i believe they got rid of that vat and sold out most of it. ive never purchased large amounts of live rock from a lfs (i do online orders), but i sort of regret not doing so because it's a good thing to know what you're getting.

josh

 

[Slickdonkey]

Thanks for the ideas. I'm paranoid about getting undesirables in the tank, because catching them in a 240 is going to be impossible.

I read that some people dunk the rock in a high-salinity (1.035 or so) salt mixture, causing the little critters to come scurrying off the rock and into the bucket. Then you can pick and choose. Has anyone tried this?

 

[liveforphysics]

I would go with uncured. Tell a LFS whats going on, and that you would like them to order you xxxlbs of uncured liverock. Tell them you will just come by and pickup the bulk crate package it ships in, so they dont have to do a thing besides order it for you. If they arent willing to cut you a good deal (they should be competive with online sources, espically when factoring in shipping), then talk to a differnt LFS.

An option if you wana be one of the few reefers without negitive impact to natural reefs would be to make your own agrocrete rock and seed it. It more rapidly covers in coraline than natural rocks, and once its been in a tank for a few months, you would never know that it wasnt once parts of natural reefs. Its fun to make, but also a lot of work, there are tons of resources available to learn how to make it. The stuff that I make ends up costing me about 0.25$/lbs, and its very porous and strong with all the cool shapes and caves and shelves and things I desire. I know most people arent interested in makeing there own rock, but I wanted to throw it out as a possibility, since it is the most respectable option available. Once you make your rock, toss it in a mesh bags and stash it in a local river or lake or dock or anything similar. After about 2 weeks, its ready to go into your tank. Toss in a few handfuls of rubble from somebodys fuge to seed it, and POOF, in about a month, you have an enviromentally friendy reef ready to go.

 

[Slickdonkey]

I would go with uncured. Tell a LFS whats going on, and that you would like them to order you xxxlbs of uncured liverock. Tell them you will just come by and pickup the bulk crate package it ships in, so they dont have to do a thing besides order it for you. If they arent willing to cut you a good deal (they should be competive with online sources, espically when factoring in shipping), then talk to a differnt LFS.

So why are you recommending the uncured -- because it's cheaper?

An option if you wana be one of the few reefers without negitive impact to natural reefs would be to make your own agrocrete rock and seed it. It more rapidly covers in coraline than natural rocks, and once its been in a tank for a few months, you would never know that it wasnt once parts of natural reefs.

Right, I think I read about this in Delbeek & Sprung vol 3. Being realistic, I don't think I'm going to be able to pull this off on a 240 gallon tank which has already become a monstrous project. But thanks for the idea -- maybe I can do some cool ledges or something.

 

[liveforphysics]

Not recomending it becaue its cheaper. Recomending it because the process of it cureing in your new tank will throughly cycle your tank automatically. Just load it up with rock, fill it with water, good circulation,and get a sump with cheato well lit under it and let it do its thing. I would also feed daily, not a whole bunch, but enough that you keep up a strong biodiverse population of critters. No water changes or anything like that(slows the process), just let it do whatever its going to do and keep harvesting the cheato.

I think that will give you your best and most stable final product. When you see your your NH3/4, NO2, NO3 levels all drop undectable, you know its ready. If you arent water changeing to screw up the ballence, this should happen in just a month or two.

 

[wrightme43]

I'm in the process of setting up a reef tank (240g) for the first time and have a few questions about live rock:

- Do you save much by buying uncured rock and curing it yourself over the course of a few weeks?
- What are the pros and cons of the different types of rock? I see lots of different kinds available.
- Are the mail-order outfits much cheaper for large quantities? If so, which have the best rock and reputations?
- How do you search the rocks for unwanted critters like mantis shrimp before dumping it in the tank?
- How much rock do you recommend? I've seen recommendations all over the spectrum.
- For those living in Western Washington (a large number of you, apparently), which local shops typically have the best stuff?

Brian

The cost issue is really not the deal here. .15-.30 a lb is really not much money in the grand scheme of a reef. I agree totally that uncured is the way to go. I am consistently amazed at the life that come free with live rock. I just found a chiton after 2+ years.
The pros and cons of different kinds of live rock are hard to quantify. It really depends on what you want your reef to look like.
Some kinds are very dense. Some kinds are very porus. Some kinds have very open shapes, and others are very closed. It will also very very much depend on WHO you get it from. The cheapest in my experince is not the best. I prefer tonga branch, for reasons of my own. I like a very open live rock structure. I like the way it stacks, it is very stable. It also takes up a lot of room for the lbs purchased. I get mine from Dave B. a www.vividaquariums.com he can get large 25-50lb chunks of tonga branch. It does cost more. I believe alot of the really cheap rock you see on ebay and such is shipped boat frieght, and is really really nasty and dead when it arrives in the states. I found a good retailer after trying a few places so I stick with him. I am sure there are many other great sellers, I am happy with my supplier and will continue to support him.
Most of the rock that has mantis and other unwanted hitchhikers is coming from the carribeian as aquacultured rock. There are of course some coming in from the pacific as well. You can pour plain soda water on the rock, to drive out dangerous critters, but I dont really reccomend it, and dont do it myself.
About the lbs per gallon thing, its like this, 240 lbs of figi, will defintely fill the tank a different way than 240 lbs of tonga branch. If you want a open system I wouldnt go less than 120 lbs of rock, and if you want a tight stack all the way up, 250 lbs would not be unreasonable. Take a look at some different tanks. Find one you like and want to imulate. Ask that person questions in p.m. or ask for thier phone number. Most of us would be glad to tell you all about our systems.
Here are some photos of mine. I highly reccomend a skimmer during cycling, and continuos use at all times. I also reccomend a phosban reactor with a phosphate absorber at all times. Here are the results of doing what I do.

Before following anyones advice, I would definetly take a look at thier tanks.
I mean I wouldnt hire a tree trimmer, that cut a tree down into his house. Its the same with this stuff. If you see somebody who is doing well ask them how.

 

[plack]

SLICKDONKEY WELCOME

I don't think you can beat this deal/price/free shippping on 75 ponds or more delivered to your closest major airport in our case that is sea-tac check it out

http://www.intmarinefish.com/liverock.html

you would only need to go to sea tac to pick it up 1 time and they will call you to let you know the day they ship it and tell when it gets on the plane and you can get it the next morning its easy tell them you want large pieces heavily corraline encrusted!!!

 

[jesshimom]

Great advise, if you cure it in the tank in your house plan for a stinky time. We always cure ours in our garage so we can survive inside. I've done it in the tank before and said I won't do that again.

 

[mattseattle]

If you want the below deal you better hurry:

$3.15 PER LB THIS OFFER WILL ONLY LAST TILL 3/2/06 SO BUY NOW

SLICKDONKEY WELCOME

I don't think you can beat this deal/price/free shippping on 75 ponds or more delivered to your closest major airport in our case that is sea-tac check it out

http://www.intmarinefish.com/liverock.html

you would only need to go to sea tac to pick it up 1 time and they will call you to let you know the day they ship it and tell when it gets on the plane and you can get it the next morning its easy tell them you want large pieces heavily corraline encrusted!!!

 

[plack]

Don't worry they had the same deal last month I'd just call and ask

 

[mattseattle]

that's good to know.....

 

[Slickdonkey]

I thought most people didn't cure the rock in the tank, rather in a bucket in the garage or something?

Anyway, thanks for the advice guys. I won't be ready to buy for at least a month or so but am trying to get all my ducks in a row beforehand. I won't want to spend any time researching when it comes time to fill my tank!

 

[Krish]

I think Steve summed it up pretty well

As for me, I used basically 50/50 base rock and LR. The LR seeded the base rock and now I have a tank full of LR. The thing about "cured" rock is when taken out of a tank and transported to another one, it will more than likely experence some form of die-off. Some rock will have less than others, but will all still need to be cycled.

I thought most people didn't cure the rock in the tank, rather in a bucket in the garage or something?

That's usually the case when you have a tank already setup and you decided afterwards to add more rock to it. To add new rock to an already cycled tank with out curing it seperately from the tank, will basiclly start your cycle all over again. People who start out with all the rock they plan on using, usually cure and cycle it their tank one time. Best of luck man

 

[wrightme43]

Yes like Krish and Luke said, there can be large benifits from curing, the rock in tank. When I can that is what I do. However, like at hospitols, or businesses I cant take a chance on having stinky rock for three or four days. So I have a curing vat. The tank still has to settle in, its just tha the initial die off is done away from where people are. I hope this helps some.
This is something I always try to explain to people. The rock is the basis for your reef. It sets the whole visual scape of your tank. Pick carefully. Cheapest rock is not the prettiest rock. This stuff is going to be in your tank for a long time, corals you love are going to attach to it. A few hundred extra spent on rock for the good stuff, will be forgotten quickly. A few hundred saved, will nag on you every time you look in your reef. Get some magazines, books, and look on the boards. Find that tank that makes you go, WOW, ask that person questions. I get lots of calls wanting people to fix, tanks that were set up on the cheap, by someone else. It doesnt work out, the way the person wanted it, so the person that set it up abandons it, and leaves the customer in the lurch. They are out plenty of money, cause to really have what they want, they need to buy stuff twice. And its harder cause there is stressed livestock, that have to be kept alive, while fixing, a poor design.
Get the good stuff. It pays in the begining, middle, and end.

 

[Krish]

Since Steve posted a photo here's mine as well. It's a mixture of Florida rock, Fiji and like I said almost 50% base rock. I swapped tanks last month (which was done in under 3 hours), but the intital setup is almost 9 months old. This photo was taken last week

 

[spongebob lover]

Krish and Steve are right.
For me, when i first bought my LR, i went to a few LFS and i bought their rock from their display tank (some store was going out of business), it wasn't cheap at all because it was in their display tanks, but sure it was better because i got to see and pick the rocks with the shapes i wanted.

 

[Slickdonkey]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the pictures. It's nice to see the different type of rock and this should help me (and the wife) choose what we like. Especially if I go the mail order route, it's hard to know what you're getting.

I have no problem spending some extra money to get it right the first time.

BTW, I thought Florida rock can't be harvested anymore?