Mandarin ?

[josh88]

I've tore through all the threads I could find about mandarin dragonets, maybe 100's of hours online looking to. And I haven't been able to find one thing to point me into the direction of my ? So here I go. What is an acceptable flow rate in a tank that would house 1 mandarin dragonet? I have two power heads each rated at 260 gph but pointed at each other towards the surface. And two 260 gph returns from my overflow. Any advice would help thanks

HTC EVO

 

[NC2WA]

IMO flow rate would not be my concern for this fish.

Since this fish primarily feeds on live copepods, the source of where it is getting from would be my concern. Typically, you want a very mature tank (that is 2+yrs with plenty of live rock that can support the supplementation of copepods) or a fuge connected to the tank that can keep the supply of copepods available.

Most deaths of this fish occur because they run out of food to eat or the tank cannot keep up with the supply fast enough.

My .02

 

[josh88]

Yeah its not happening anytime soon. Like not even in 6 months soon. I've researched a lot, and as far as the food source I've decided on doing pod piles, just swapping them out every 4 days. But back to my original ?. the 3 LFS I've talked to give very conflicting flow rates that they recommend. One says 10x, the other says 25x, and the 3 said it doesn't matter. It could be high flow rate, as long as the amphipod/copeopod is established, and the tank is two years old as you've said. But still not a definet answer.

HTC EVO

 

[NC2WA]

..and you prolly won't get a definitive answer as there isn't one...too subjective..

 

[josh88]

To subjective. Lol man so its a test basically to figure it out :screwy:. Or subjective based on tank size, and coral, etc

HTC EVO

 

[NC2WA]

yes, trial and error...correct, too subjective as in too many factors that can alter the answer.

 

[josh88]

Ok so flow rate is an adjustable variable I can play with, and in your opinion it needs to be an established tank, and the feeding of it, and through reading, the mandarin is a hardy fish, but due to the never ending appetite. they need to be properly feed as far as consistent population of amph/cope for them, not forgetting of course water parameters
So then I'll work towards those to start with and bring it up when I feel its time.
Thanks man, I appreciate the info. It's helped more than you know
HTC EVO

 

[josh88]

This is not directed at anyone here, this is the most helpful forum, and is more of a general opinion towards a lot of other forums I've read, and research I've done. And 6 total lfs I've talked to since yesterday now. Wow so the reason everyone pushs to not have a mandarin is due to the eating habits, I personally feel that if you depend on your tank to support anything without taking the extra bit of effort most any fish would die. Honestly everyone's fears towards owning this fish is due to not affording the food it needs to survive, these fish are very hardy due to a slime coat for protection, and the toxin the secret when stressed and threaten. But I also personally feel that a lot of ppl blow it far out of proportion. Instead of freaking ppl out about, or turning them away with extreme words, there should be a statement as far as, yes having one is nice, but the feeding requirements for this fish is expensive, be prepared to drop some cash on its food, if you don't have an established tank. With a high population of amphipod/copeopods. And with all the research I've done, and seen in person, these fish by themselves could very well be sustained in a 20 gal tank with no problems. WOW! I understand that ppl just don't want to see a beautiful fish die, I wouldn't either, but whatever happened to informing. And encouraging, and helping each other to do what the dream of. This is an ever expanding hobby, and with help things wouldn't have advanced much like today. JMHO

HTC EVO

 

[jezzeaepi]

I personally feel that if you depend on your tank to support anything without taking the extra bit of effort most any fish would die. Honestly everyone's fears towards owning this fish is due to not affording the food it needs to survive, these fish are very hardy due to a slime coat for protection, and the toxin the secret when stressed and threaten.

Im really not sure where you got your information, or what your information even is, but keeping mandarins has nothing to do with the EXPENSE of the food. It is the AMOUNT of pods that a given amount of live rock can sustain over the long run. If you dont have enough live rock, your mandarin will eventually eat ALL of the pods and the population will crash and your mandarin will starve. If you are buying pods just to keep your mandarin alive, then you have already lost the battle because there is absolutely no way in hell you could buy enough pods to keep them alive.

But I also personally feel that a lot of ppl blow it far out of proportion. Instead of freaking ppl out about, or turning them away with extreme words, there should be a statement as far as, yes having one is nice, but the feeding requirements for this fish is expensive, be prepared to drop some cash on its food, if you don't have an established tank. With a high population of amphipod/copeopods.

Again, the price of the pods has nothing to do with it. It is the fact that you will never be able to buy enough pods to feed your mandarin. A mandarin could eat the entire container of pods that you buy ina single day, so unless you want to spend $~7000 a year keeping your fish alive, then , for all practical purposes, money is not the issue, it is the amount of live rock you have.

And with all the research I've done, and seen in person, these fish by themselves could very well be sustained in a 20 gal tank with no problems. WOW! I understand that ppl just don't want to see a beautiful fish die, I wouldn't either, but whatever happened to informing. And encouraging, and helping each other to do what the dream of.

I really don't mean any disrespect, but the amount of research "you have done" pales in comparison to the amount of research done by everyone on this board collectively, as well as experts like Lee. A well established 50 gallons is the minimum recommended sized based on years of successes and failures. We aren't spreading misinformation, we are spreading real information.

 

[josh88]

Understandable, but just because your live rock doesn't support enough, you can always purchase pods for them to eat, which then becomes an expense. My info came from 6 different LFS. And the reasons why they would push not to do it. But if someone was willing to spend the money for the pods, its easily kept. And it was just my thoughts. And what they told me. I agree that having enough live rock is a tremendous help, but its possible without it. Is all I was saying

HTC EVO

 

[josh88]

And I know ya aren't being disrespectful. Anything anyone says is more knowledge on my end. I was more saying if someone was willing to spend the money it could be possible. Not challenging anyone, that are pros, just my thoughts.

HTC EVO

 

[vetschroger]

Just a side note, I know that mandarins eat pods. I have one though that prefers to eat brine shrimp when I am feeding the other fish as well. I see him rooting through the rocks throughout the day, but at feeding time he is often the first fish waiting for shrimp. I know that this is rare, but just my observation on their diet.

 

[DonW]

Just a side note, I know that mandarins eat pods. I have one though that prefers to eat brine shrimp when I am feeding the other fish as well. I see him rooting through the rocks throughout the day, but at feeding time he is often the first fish waiting for shrimp. I know that this is rare, but just my observation on their diet.

Not really rare but brine dont do much if anything nutritionally even gut loaded. Like feeding candy and and big mac's.

Don

 

[josh88]

Exactly, the LFS in Vancouver, has trained his mandarin to eat fine chopped blood worms, and mysis. Even aquacultured foods from Kent. And from what I saw it went right after it as soon as it hit the water. But to me I see no difference in thousands of dollars spent on large tanks, sumps/refugium. To spending a couple hundred on a tank and thousands on one fish. If its a want and your willing.

HTC EVO

 

[jezzeaepi]

Exactly, the LFS in Vancouver, has trained his mandarin to eat fine chopped blood worms, and mysis. Even aquacultured foods from Kent. And from what I saw it went right after it as soon as it hit the water. But to me I see no difference in thousands of dollars spent on large tanks, sumps/refugium. To spending a couple hundred on a tank and thousands on one fish. If its a want and your willing.

HTC EVO

There is certainly something to be said for training your mandarin to go after prepared foods, but that is a task in itself that is done in a separate QT tank. It still doesn't change the fact that they need to be able to slowly graze on pods throughout the day in order to get the proper nutrition.

Think of it like you would think of feeding a tang. Tangs have evolved over thousands of years to swim around the reef and eat algae all day. As aquarists, we try our best to mimic the tangs natural diet by offering algae, usually in the form of dry algae on a clip. The mandarin is no different in respects to its diet. The mandarin has evolved to graze on pods all day. If you remove algae from a tangs diet, you will be slowly killing the fish by not allowing it reach its daily nutritional needs. Over time this causes stress to the fish, eventually leading to its death. The mandarin is the same way in that if you removed pods from a mandarins diet, you would be slowly killing it, even IF it was getting food through other avenues.

If you don't have enough surface area in your tank(via the quantity and porosity of the LR in your tank), then your mandarin will eventually eat all of pods. However, unlike the example of the tang, it is much harder to tell how many pods are left in your tank vs how much algae is left on the clip. This is because copepods are very tiny, so you wont be able to tell they are gone until your fish starts getting skinny(i.e. starving your fish). I can just barely see copepods if they are right on the glass, but it is physically impossible to see how many are on the rock. So, unless you are going to put your tank on a regular schedule of something like one container of pods every 4-5 days, then it is basically impossible. And, at 40~ shipped for 1000 pods every 5 days, that is still almost 3k/ year. It is infinitely easier, and cheaper to just set up a slightly larger tank. Or, if you still want a 20g display, then set up a 40g refugium that feeds pods to your tank. One way or another you need to get the pods in there for them to eat, and paying for them is very ineffecient in terms of time and money.

 

[leebca]

As mentioned in some posts, pod life in a closed off aquarium is insuffienct to support pod eaters. Mandarins can be kept and kept healthy, but they require extra attention to their training and their diet. Feeding them in a community tank can be challenging, since getting food to them without other fishes eating it can be problematic. I cover some of these topics here: Food Presentation.

The nutritional quality of food is much related to the form it comes in: Different Marine Fish Food Forms.

Circulation for all FOWLR aquariums should be in the area of 8 to 12X the total volume of water per hour, turnover.

 

[josh88]

And what about a reef tank where the mandarin is the only fish in the tank?

HTC EVO

 

[leebca]

Any marine aquarium only has pods in it that will live under those conditions. Those pods are only as nutritious as they are being fed. In a large, closed marine system, with just one pod eater, there could marginally be enough pods, but they will not be a complete diet.

Remember: The pod population waxes and wanes as the carnivorous pods eat the omnivorous and herbivorous pods. Eventually an equilibrium of sorts evolves. But the cross population of pods in a tank is nowhere near the diversity and nutritious level of pods the pod eater finds in the wild. Always best to provide prepared foods with supplements added. The tank pod life is 'in between meal snacks.'