My notes from Bob Fenner

[liveforphysics]

PSAS was nice enough to bring in Bob Fenner to give a lecture. If you dont know the name, you can google it. The guy is a world famous expert and author.

Some highlights from Bob Fenners lecture on saturday:

1. Mg++ level should be 3 times Ca+ level.

2. If you drink your tap water, its safe for your reef tank. Tap water is 99% of the time incorectly blamed for tank issues. This is comming from a guy who lives in southern cali with REALLY bad tap water.

3. Any refugium at all is good to have. Even a tiny hang on back type.

4. If you grow macro algae, its very good for a bunch of reasons. It can be made to totally out compete other algaes once a perticular type has a strong hold. This is because it changes some things in the water after a while to better suit itself. These changes have no effect on corals.


5. If you use macro for nutrient export, you need to make conditions so it grows rapidly and you must export it rapidly.

6. The best calcium reactor media is dead coral skeletons. The ARM stuff sucks.

7. You should always dump your calc reactor out completely, never just add more on top of the stuff thats left in the bottom. That stuff on the bottom is "no good".

8. Natural reefs have increadible amounts of nutrients, they just have the bio diversity to have a nitch available to store it inside things.

9. Macro algae with no herbaviors grows rapidly on reefs.

10. Algae WILL grow in your reef system no matter what, so its best to grow some form of it you like that happens to be reef friendly.

11. Biodiversity is very important in our tanks. Mono culture attempts just dont work.


Hopefully, other members will contribute who remember more.


After the show at outback steakhouse, he answered some more questions.

One of them was reguarding the natural high tide/low tide salinity changes that occur on reefs. Swinging between 1.023 - 1.026 daily is not an issue with SPS and other corals. I think to quote him, it was something like "its one of those things that people like to get all worked up about for nothing"

Mojo and some of the others who were there might remember more.

 

[Krish]

Sounds very informtive Luke...Thanks for sharing the info with us

 

[morgan]

yeh so i googled it and he was saying that metal halide isnt the be all end all lighting for a tank accorind to this man my 14000 k metal halide puts put to much uv spectrum maybe this is why my hair agle is tanking over i was told when i vought it that it would solve 99% of my problems really i havent had any real succses with it
he also said that 5500k whit a cri of 92 would be enough i think i paid through the nose for a light that is over kill and harming my system
and the tap water bit could this really be true causei could save like a hundered bucks on a ro/di system
more questions then answers

 

[wave98]

Some highlights from Bob Fenners lecture on saturday:

2. If you drink your tap water, its safe for your reef tank. Tap water is 99% of the time incorectly blamed for tank issues. This is comming from a guy who lives in southern cali with REALLY bad tap water.

7. You should always dump your calc reactor out completely, never just add more on top of the stuff thats left in the bottom. That stuff on the bottom is "no good".

8. Natural reefs have increadible amounts of nutrients, they just have the bio diversity to have a nitch available to store it inside things.

#2 is a bit "hard" to swallow ( pun intended ). I have 4.5 meq/L alkalinity in my tap water, and in my tank. It is too high, and I can't get Calc. over 360 to save my soul. RO/DI water should cure this. I put tap water with 1.0ppm Phosphate in my tank from the tap, and the tank brings it down to .2 to .4 ppm, which is generally considered way too high for very many corals, even as stated by Bob Fenner.

#7 What is the "no good" in the "bottom stuff" ?

#8 What does this mean ?

Thanks Luke, > Barry

 

[big t]

It really was a facinating discussion. I was really tired but it kept me awake, and my wife (it was her first meeting) even enjoyed it (she has little interest in all this reef stuff)

I may be able to help out with a couple of these questions.

Morgan, I don't think that you wasted money on your lights. Algea can be caused by old lights, how old are your bulbs? While I agree that 55k lights are "enough" I don't think that anyone would be very happy with the color they emmit. The color of the lights are more to do with the person looking at the tank then the corals themselves. If you are really interested in the corals health and growth, I can't think of a better bulb then a iwasaki (eye) 65k MV lamp. Most people cannot stand the yellow look of the tank that comes with running them.

Barry,
#2 While he did say that if using if you can drink the water you can probably use it in your reef, however he also stated that he uses rodi, and uses the waste water to irrigate his grass. In my opinion if you have 4.5 meq and 1ppm of phosphate your water is unsuitable.

#7 Bob was refering to a calcium reactor using the media. He said to fill it up and run it untill it gets down quite a ways, then replace the media with fresh. He said not to use the crap that was left over, because most of what was useable has been used and what was left was probably not going to melt. He also said that calcium reactors are the way to go for anyone with a reef over 50 gallons. Bob didn't expand much on the subject but he seemed to be "anti kalk" for some reason, and made jokes about it a couple times about how aweful it is. I have been meaning to send him a e-mail about it.

#8 It is commonly heard that the natural reefs are "nutrient poor." He was trying to say that was a myth, and they are actually nutrient rich. His reasoning is that the reef has tons of animals and life that suck the nutrients out of the water the second it is available, so the nutrients are there but not necessarily in the water. The nutrients are stored in all the animals, plants, and algea.

Bob affirmed many times how important it was to have a refugium and have it stocked with a variety of algea, and not be dominated by any one particular strain. He spoke of how macro algea can release chemicals into the system that can make it hard for micro algea to thrive.

He came around to several folks houses including mine before the meeting to see what the local tanks were like around here. When he saw mine he asked what was up with all these tanks that didn't have any substrate? I talked to him briefly about how many local folks have been having problems with sandbeds as of late, and my personal experience with it. He really liked Dang's sps system and made many references to it during his speach.

 

[NaH2O]

I don't buy the tap water thing at all. What about water with high chloramines like in Indianapolis?: Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium. Or what about water with high phosphates? I have a hard time believing that statement on tap water. My TDS is in the 500s....I can't imagine what that would do to my tank. He does make the same point in his book "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist", but then says later if your source water is extremely poor, a home RO/DI units a definite benefit. He also indicated purchasing decloraminator for chloramines...but at what cost over time??? This also does nothing for the phosphates in the water (or other potential nasties), so then you need a phosphate remover....again...add the cost. You'd be better off with a RO/DI unit, IMO.

 

[RGibson]

Nikki did Bob Fenners say what was a good calcium reactor media to used?

 

[DonW]

I think a rodi even with low tds water is cheap insurance. You never know what going to come out. My neighbor got a water meter installed and all our faucet screens and ro filters got plugged.
Although I missed the meeting, I like the thinking about nutrients. I think it was Dang and Tom that metioned lack of growth with filter socks. Myself, Ive had just that, little to no growth if I only feed once per day and use filter socks. To increase growth I started feeding for or five times per day, and it seems to be working.

Don

 

[ScottT1980]

I don't buy the tap water thing at all. What about water with high chloramines like in Indianapolis?: Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium. Or what about water with high phosphates? I have a hard time believing that statement on tap water. My TDS is in the 500s....I can't imagine what that would do to my tank. He does make the same point in his book "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist", but then says later if your source water is extremely poor, a home RO/DI units a definite benefit. He also indicated purchasing decloraminator for chloramines...but at what cost over time??? This also does nothing for the phosphates in the water (or other potential nasties), so then you need a phosphate remover....again...add the cost. You'd be better off with a RO/DI unit, IMO.

Yeah, I almost spit out my coffee reading Fenner's remarks this AM. Perhaps a bit of editorializing was done in relaying his statement? I definitely would need to hear the context of this message.

I also agree that the various reefs around the globe are high in biodiversity and ultimately *bound* energy. However, it is pretty undeniable that the water itself id nutrient poor. Just a matter of semantics I suppose...

Biodiversity is very important in our tanks. Mono culture attempts just dont work.

By "work," did he mean nutrient export?

Take er easy
Scott T.

 

[pk1]

Kalk

"Bob didn't expand much on the subject but he seemed to be "anti kalk" for some reason, and made jokes about it a couple times about how awful it is. I have been meaning to send him a e-mail about it."

I would be interested in hearing his response to this also, as many people use kalk exclusively.

Patrick

 

[liveforphysics]

With the water thing, he was quite clear about what he meant. He commented that the tap water he gets in his city was water that even LA didnt want (thats gotta be low). He said that if you have a well for water, you should have it analized to ensure there is nothing toxic in it before useing it, and then use it.

I belive he said something like a healthy system will handle and possibily even bennifit from most high #TDS water. Dont quote me on that though, I would love another member with a solid memory to help out here.

I supose if we break it down with logic, there are 3 options for you guys.

#1 Bob is lying to us along with Calfo in some giant conspiricy to cause aquariums to do poorly.

#2 Your (the non-beliver) personal knowledge, insight, schooling, experience, practice, is much greater than Bobs & Calfos, so you may toss aside the statement confident in the belief that you know better.

#3 Maybe they dont make up these things they say. If I remember right, before he said it at the lecture, he said something like "now, this is going to make all of you protest and say no no no Bob".

 

[Llarian]

He did specifically say it in the context that he had heard from several people that Seattle water was of very good quality. Given that he mentioned that at the start of that train of thought, you have to take that into account.

Best way to find out is to ask him really, but I'm wondering if this isn't one of those, "It ended up on the internet" sort of things that he was talking about. =)

-Dylan

 

[DonW]

I dont think its a matter belief or disbelief. Everyones water is going to be a little different. Mine is usually right at 20 or 21 tds. If I get a flushing notice, I can count on the fact that it will shoot up to 400 for a day or so. I dont think anyone can tell me exactly what is in the 380 difference. Better safe than sorry.

Don

 

[liveforphysics]

About the bio-diversity thing, he made it quite clear to keep as many different types of creatures in a tank living together as possible (as long as they each have enough room). Then he warned about how dangerous it is to keep elegance corals and some other long sweeper tenticle species in a tank.

He said with macro algae that we should keep at least 2-3 different species in a goodly quanity at all times. I asked him if my different species of cheato counted, and he said "yes, definiately, and cheato has an exellent roll in aquariums". He seemed to be really pushing the angle of keeping some of the beautiful types of macro (like the blue dictyota) in the display itself as a feature.

 

[Llarian]

I was actually a bit surprised about his emphasis of Caulerpa as the ultimate algae given its strong toxicity and tendency to go sexual. Just seems to me like an unnecessary risk when something like several species of cheato or halimeda or something are available. I think the observation about monoculture with regard to refugium species was a very good point, although a segmented refugium for growing different species can be ineffective for a lot of people due to space considerations.

-Dylan

 

[liveforphysics]

I am just going to email him and tell him to come onto this forum and answer this question himself in person so we dont have to waste our time with interpretations.



more important things he said:



12. You should perodically run good carbon. Carbon is used up within 5mins of being in a real reef tank, not just water with blue dye in it that they test with. He recomended useing it weekly (if I remember correctly, might have been every 2 weeks, help somebody?)

13. A tablespoon of some brands of carbon works better than buckets of others. If you dont store your carbon in an air tight container, its junk. He was really suprized to hear that our club didnt do large group buys on a pallet of carbon.

 

[pk1]

Using large quantities of carbon in conjunction with tap water sounds like 1 step forward and 2 steps back? It would have been nice to hear him speak that's for sure, seems I always have more questions than answers when it comes to this hobby! Hopefully he can pop on here and clear up some of our misunderstandings!

PK

 

[NaH2O]

Nikki did Bob Fenners say what was a good calcium reactor media to used?

I don't know. I'll check it out. My poor book is in shambles....I've used it so much over the past few years, the binding is all shot, the pages are pretty much separated from each other (nothing attached to the binding), and it is held together by rubberbands. My daughter saw me looking in it (for the RO/DI info) and said, "Momma, you need a new book."

 

[liveforphysics]

nearly forgot this one, and its a biggy

14. As long as Ca levels are above 350-360ppm, there is no bennfit from being higher. Its much more important to have the ratios between carbonate, Ca, and Mg accurate.


He went on to say that people pushing levels to 500 etc is just an exercise in futility. They should focus on getting the ratios correct rather than pumping calcium.



As far as his complaints about kalk go, I think Boomer could do a great job with the explaination.

 

[liveforphysics]

Rgibson- He said that since we are trying to create coral skeletons, useing coral skeletons provides exactly everything they need, and in the proper amounts. He made it clear that useing coral skeletons was the very best media. I specifically asked him about useing dolomite for Mg++ in the reactor, and he specifically said its not good, just use coral skeletons.