my sump/fuge

[theJ]

Here is my freshly cured DIY sump/fuge. Im no pro at this, but I think I did an ok job, what do you think? I still have the opprotunity to mod this out a little, and I had a question on gas exchange.

The drain to fuge drop is only about a half inch, is this ok for adequate gas exchange? I noticed while filling the overflow (eats up a 5gal bucket quickly with no problem!) and running the pump (mag 9.5 capped about 25% with a ball valve) that once the water is flowing, it doesnt drop as far as I thought it would to the fuge. The surface tension of the water builds up and theres no waterfall, its more of a little dip in the surface of the water.

Should I cut the pump chamber baffle down another half inch to create a longer drop to the fuge or should I be ok with what I got currently?

Heres some pics (crappy but they work):
http://thejerrod.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=9 <- mostly empty
http://thejerrod.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=11 <- equipment installed
http://thejerrod.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=12 <-flow from chamber 1 to fuge
http://thejerrod.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=13 <- should I cut on this dotted line?

Thanks for the input!

 

[Krish]

Your sump looks great! Nice job on it As for gas exchange, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on trying to achieve it in your sump. Not very much surface area in there to talk about. Once you have good surface aggitation in your main display, then you're good to go where gas exchange is concerned IMO. Just a thought...Good luck and welcome to the forum

 

[theJ]

Thanks for the encouragement, I read a lot on here before I set it up, lots of great info!

 

[IAP Brian]

I agree with Krish. Your sump looks fine and should work great (just too bad it's not acrylic ) As far as the gas exchange goes, the turbulance in the sump is all you need there, most of the nitrogen escape and oxygen introduction should take place at the surface of your display tank.

 

[Jan]

Hi, theJ,

Looks good! I am about to build one of these myself. It would be really helpful to me if you could "walk me through" your sump from end to end, and explain how the water moves from chamber to chamber. I've been reading up on sumps/refugiums myself, but I'm still trying to gel all that info into a cohesive understanding of how to put one together. (I bought a kit off eBay where you're able to put it together any way you want...)

Thanks!

 

[Krish]

Hi Jan! Here's a good link to check out that explains how a sump works and also, there is a little animation at the bottom as well showing how it works.

http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

 

[davidabrown66]

Hey theJ, are you planning on having all of the water that returns to your sump go thru your fuge?

Might be too much flow depending on what you're trying to do...just a thought, and not trying to be a "know-it-all". Here's an article and picture of a possible option where the refugium is the part of the sump, but self contained and receives water from a small powerhead in the sump, and then overflows back into the sump before it returns to the tank.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/refugfaqs9.htm

Lots of designs here if this is an option.

 

[theJ]

ah crap I didnt think of that :/

 

[Krish]

ah crap I didnt think of that :/

I wouldn't worry too much just yet Have you decided what you wanted to keep in your fuge? If chaeto, then that water can roll on through as it is suggested to have a nice ball of chaeto tumbling with the flow. If you plan on using live rock (as some people like to do) then you want great flow through there as well as rocks shed and if the flow is too little, you will have an accumilation of detritus etc in that chamber which if not removed can degrade water quality etc. It all depends on your plans on what you want to keep in there. The way your sump is designed with the skimmer getting a shot at incoming water first and then water flows through the fuge, is how a lot of people have their sumps setup which is ideal for some applications. So before you make any changes just yet or get down, let us know what your plans are for the fuge section as your setup may be fine the way it is

 

[theJ]

krish75,

The way your sump is designed with the skimmer getting a shot at incoming water first and then water flows through the fuge, is how a lot of people have their sumps setup which is ideal for some applications

I had read having the skimmer in the first chamber is ideal, so you dont skim out your natural fuge goodness before it even hits the tank.

The main goal of the sump/fuge was to provide additional water volume, increased airation, and an area for extra biological filtration like live rock, chaeto, plants, etc. Maybe grow pods or toss some live sand in there, however in light of this I might not be able to do that considering the high flow environment.

Say my system flows about 698gph after head loss (roughly 4ft of head) plus a quarter turn on the ball valve (guessing at 25% loss here) leaving me at 519.5gph, worse case scenario 500gph through the fuge. Am I overstepping the 'not so fast' boundries and going high flow in the fuge? Any livestock out there that can tolerate or hopefully thrive in that kind of evironment?

I was really set on sand, rock, a few plants and some inverts in the fuge to be honest, but now im starting to re-think the sand/inverts idea.

Im not really as informed as I should be on chaeto, and not sure if you can use it in conjunction with rock. It sounds like they both benefit from the same high flow environment, but does chaeto like tumbling in/around rock all the time?

Oh by the way, the fuge itself is about 7.2gal (12x12x11.5), the skimmer/drain chamber is about 5.1gal (12x8.5x11.5) and the pump sits in a 2.3gal (12x4x11) chamber all stuffed inside a glass 20gal for thoes interested

I realize the pump area is a little small, so I am trying to come up with a decent top off or shut off system to keep the pump wet during high evaporation (spokane, wa/post falls, id type evaporation heh) and to help reduce maintenance.

Sorry for the long winded post, I've been thinking about this all day

 

[theJ]

Jan,

Thanks for the kind words

Honestly the best thing to do is to read, read some more, measure, read, measure again, and then 'dry fit' everything together. Put your skimmer in, pumps where they should go, return/drain tubes, heaters, whatever you got, all inside your sump and then place your baffles around everything.

oh, and really know what you want

Here is what I did and my thought process, I hope it helps you out, and you can learn from it!

I tried to make sure that I knew what I wanted, and even after planning I skipped a few areas!
I knew I wanted to make sure whatever microbubbles came from my drain and skimmer were all cleared out, leaving me with cleaner looking display. I made a baffle system for that, which is about a half inch off the floor of the sump, and this allows water to flow under it. By doing that, the microbubbles have to go deeper than they really want to go, and end up just hanging around the top until they pop.

the water then hits the first wall of the fuge chamber, about an inch down stream from the first baffle and flows up, and then over the lip, which is about a half inch drop as I mentioned earlier in the thread. In hind sight, I would make this a .75in drop. The drop by the way is determined by the next chamber. This little drop gives a small level of aeration, but nothing near what the surface of the display tank will offer, according to more experienced individuals Also, I guess it adds a little surface skimming to the mix, since the water is 'sheeting' over that little drop, but there is no where near the amount of surface area in this little sump to compare to the gigantic overflow in the display.

So after the water mixes up in the fuge, it hits the wall of the return pump chamber, or the last wall in the fuge, same thing I mentioned above this wall is what determines the water level in the fuge. Each chamber determines the water level of the one before it, since this is where the water is actually dropping off from one chamber to the next.

The pump area holds enough water to cover the pump about half way up the baffle, and I leave the rest of the room for overflow from the drain pipe, the stand tube and actual overflow chamber of the tank, because I didn’t seal up the stand pipe setup to the bulkheads (who cares they are under water anyway!) Currently all of this water only raises the water level of the whole tank to just under mouth of the skimmer if the power were to go out, and no spills on the carpet!

I based the height of the baffles on the height of my skimmer output, and decided to keep the water level about .5in below the mouth of the skimmer, that turned out to be 11.5in. In my previous post that matches up to the height of the first wall of the fuge, or the SECOND baffle. Remember, the first one was raised a half inch off the floor so water could pass under it, after loosing its microbubbles.

As far as -where- to put the baffles in the tank, that’s up to you and your equipment, how much it flows, and how much room you have to start with. I would really read up on this part, to make sure you have enough flow and room for all your stuff. When you do figure that out though, just seal it up real good with a few tubes of aquarium safe epoxy (got it at home depot with the acrylic baffles) and let it cure for a few days. Don’t worry too much about getting glue all over the glass (if you use glass) you can scrape it all off with a razor, yes even fingerprints and the oily smear that never goes away. If you are using acrylic though, be real careful not to get it in areas you don’t want it, if you care about looks that is. Its much harder to get the small thin layer stuff with a razor on acrylic.

After it cures, fill it up and test it! Fill up the overflow and as water empties from chamber to chamber you get this really neat feeling like you have accomplished something great! After that subsides (and it will as soon as you realize your bulkhead is gushing water on the floor) turn the pump on and gauge how fast it is draining its own chamber. You can throttle it with a ball valve like I did, but I am thinking of trying a gate valve since I might have a little too much flow, as indicated earlier.

(I bought a kit off eBay where you're able to put it together any way you want...)

Do you have any pictures? Can I check out what you got to build with? I was looking at some kits online but nothing really fit the tank I had.
I used:
2 18x36 acrylic sheets (forget the size but it is thin) <-too much but this was all they had
2 tubes of aquarium safe epoxy
and my dremel tool to cut it up

About $35, but it could have been cheaper if the acrylic came in smaller sheets.

Good reading:
http://reefcentral.com/calc/
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/search.php?searchid=295532
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22393&highlight=sump
http://reefcentral.com/diy/?menu=12

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/refugfaqs9.htm

<-thanks davidabrown66!

Look another long winded post. Is this the 'reef bug' everyone seems to be saying they got bit by?

 

[theJ]

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/refugfaqs9.htm

Lots of designs here if this is an option.

That is an EXCELLENT site, thanks for sharing!

 

[Krish]

Say my system flows about 698gph after head loss (roughly 4ft of head) plus a quarter turn on the ball valve (guessing at 25% loss here) leaving me at 519.5gph, worse case scenario 500gph through the fuge. Am I overstepping the 'not so fast' boundries and going high flow in the fuge? Any livestock out there that can tolerate or hopefully thrive in that kind of evironment?

500 gph is nothing compared to what marine life experiences in the ocean You'll be fine IMO

I was really set on sand, rock, a few plants and some inverts in the fuge to be honest, but now im starting to re-think the sand/inverts idea.

Do to the size of the fuge not being very big, you probably won't benefit much at all by having sand or live rock in there. Best left for the main display tank IMO and by having it down in the sump it will probably require extra maintenance and care anyways. The rock and sand (if using any) kept in your main display should be sufficient to perform all of the biological and denitrification functions so it's not necessary in your sump IMO.

Im not really as informed as I should be on chaeto, and not sure if you can use it in conjunction with rock. It sounds like they both benefit from the same high flow environment, but does chaeto like tumbling in/around rock all the time?

According to Anthony Calfo, he suggests throwing a ball of chaeto in a bare sump and allowing the flow to tumble it for best results. If you'd like to see the post he made on it, let me know and I'll try and dig it up


In any event, you will have to do what works best for you and you feel most comfortable with. A lot of people will use sand and live rock in their sumps with great success while others have the same success without it at all. I know for me personally, with 800 gph of flow going through my sump, I still had a lot of detritus settling in there from a few pieces of live rock I had sitting in there and as a result, did more harm than good shooting up my nitrates. Here's a pic of what I vaccumed out of my sump after having 3 small pieces of live rock in there...Since going bare in the sump as well as other changes, I've kept my nitrates un-detectable for months now, but like I said, go with what works best for you as my method works well for me. There is no one right way to go about things in this hobby so don't let anyone tell you any different

 

[Jan]

After it cures, fill it up and test it! Fill up the overflow and as water empties from chamber to chamber you get this really neat feeling like you have accomplished something great! After that subsides (and it will as soon as you realize your bulkhead is gushing water on the floor)

ROLF!! :lol:

Here is link to a refugium similar to the one I bought:
[/url] http://cgi.ebay.com/36-Pro-Refugium-acrylic-aquarium-live-algae-coral-rock_W0QQitemZ300073968129QQihZ020QQcategoryZ3212QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem[/URL]

Same eBay vendor...mine is 30" long instead of 36"

It hasn't arrived yet though, and I have my skimmer and overflow box, so I think I'm going to try and set up my skimmer in a bucket so I can get it going.

Thanks very much, theJ for posting your thought process on the sump project. It's helpful.

P.S. Can anyone recommend some acrylic glue that's safe to use? A piece broke off of my brand new overflow box and I need to glue it back.

 

[theJ]

Krish,

Thanks for making me feel better about my design

I have noticed in hindsight however, a LOT of things I will be doing differently next time. One thing I noticed was I think I missed the point of the 'high flow' comment made earlier. I think what davidabrown was getting at was the flow was literally too high in the fuge area, like height wise. That is, the flow is running over the top of the water in the fuge, and dropping off into the return, without really doing mixing much with the rest of the water in the fuge. It’s a slow moving area underneath that top flow from the skimmer chamber, a lot of sand is settling out in there from my initial tank fill/rock placement adventure.

In some other posts of yours, you mentioned a neat idea, cutting holes in the fuge baffle to let some water enter the fuge at a lower level (a couple inches from the top). Ive been thinking during my next water change I could prolly get in there with my dremel and cut some holes in there..

After your insight (good shock effect with the pic after vacuuming your sump haha), Im ditching the rock/sand and definitely going with some chaeto in the fuge. Do you think this would be a good idea? To mod the baffle that is, or does it sound like too much trouble without much benefit?