New 160G Bowfront, any suggestions?

[kimoyo]

Hi everyone,
I'm looking for some suggestions about my new tank. After a 3 week search I decided on IAP to make my tank. It was down to Larry at Innovative Aquarium Products or Chris at Midwest Custom Aquariums. I thought both would make a great tank and both were very responsive to my inquiries but I decided to go with IAP for a couple of reasons. IAP has made many coast to coast overflows before and was able to do it for a little cheaper. I am happy and satisfied that IAP is doing my tank. I was also looking to James at Envision Acrylics but he doesn't do bowfronts.

The tank will be a bowfront 48*30-33*24 depending on how long he can make the sides with a 10ft sheet. It will have two trapezoidal overflows with a coast to coast overflow. Below are some pictures of some initial plans for the tank. I really didn't want any piping coming out of the back so I was trying to plan everything from the bottom of the tank. I have four holes (1.5") for the CL input (water going in the tank), 1 in each overflow and two going directly into the tank. The CL inputs in the overflows will be split off and come out of the 3 (1") upper holes in the sides of the overflows. Each of the CL input holes in the tank will have a pvc structure built around them, much like Steve Weast's design. The pvc structure will have 1/2" outlets in various places to create an interesting flow. My substrate will either be barebottom or sand sprinkled around the visible areas, but either way the area under my rock will be bare so water can flow. This will also allow me to be able to direct flow up towards the surface. I'm planning on using a 4 way oceans motions so the flow will alternate between the 4 CL input holes.

The CL outlet (water going out of the tank) will be interesting and I’m still trying to figure out how I will do it. I wanted to have one overflow contain the sump drain (1.5”) and the other the CL outlet (1.5”). The problem is that the CL outlet has to be flooded the entire time so no air can get in. Since it’s a close loop I was thinking that the overflow should stay flooded and as long as I keep the outlet low inside of the overflow no air should get in. Does anyone think different? I could always put some openings into the side of the CL overflow to insure it’s always flooded but I don’t think it’s necessary.

The sump return will be split to 1” holes in each overflow and those holes will be split into the two (3/4”) lower holes coming out of the sides of the overflows. I’m concerned about how I will plump the inside of the overflows and if there will be enough room for 90 or 45 elbows in there. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I am curious if people think that is too many holes coming out of the bottom. BTW, the top isn’t included in my drawings. Thanks.
Paul

 

[szidls]

Hey Paul,

First off let me congratulate you on the new tank. I'm sure John will do a great job. I really like the pvc structure to elevate the rock work. Will you have Euro-bracing on the tank top?. Sorry if I missed it. Also what is the lighting plan?
My only concern is the CL return in the overflow. I have heard of possible problems with pump cavitation because of micro bubbles. Also I think maintenence of bulkhead screen would be a pita. Try and locate the CL return on the back of the tank with easy access to BH for cleaning.
Look forward to seeing the progress on your new tank. Take lots of pics.
Scott

 

[mojoreef]

Congrates Paul sounds like its going to be a sweet tank. I am sure Larry at IAP will do a bang up job for ya.

Couple of things: Your over flows look like thier going to be a very busy place, as in a lot of pipes and plumbing work in their it might be a tough thing to do if you could at all.
On the CL it has to be closed, if you draw water from the overflow you will get bubbles, no real way around it. Also give the rock rac/spray bar a second look. They are water flow pigs and swallow up most of your pressure.. On Steves tank (being 9 feet deep) its understandable but for a small tank I dont know if I would make it my first choice.

nice drawings by the way


Mike

 

[kimoyo]

Hi Scott and Mike,
Thanks for the reply!
Scott, the top of the tank will have perimeter bracing and a cross brace. Larry said he would use a single piece and cut out the openings for it. Lighting is going to be the standard stuff, two 400W IceCap ballasts with spiderlight or lumenarc reflectors not sure on the bulbs yet and IceCap 660 ballast with a URI bulb.
Mike, so what would be your first choice for flow?
And why would bubbles come up in this design? I was thinking since the overflow was flooded and the CL intake would be low (far from surface)there shouldn't be any problems.
So, if I don't go with this plan what do you guys suggest? The main reason I was plumping thru the overflows was because I wanted this to look as realistic as possible. And if I don't have the CL drain in the overflow, any suggestions of where it should be? I really don't want to do anything on the back of the tank. Thanks guys.
Paul

 

[kimoyo]

Hey Mike just one other question. This is way off topic but why do you run a calcium reactor and kalkreactor? I know that the calcium lowers ph and the kalk raises it. I also know that kalkreactor is somewhat limited by your evaporation. I see a lot of people running both but I don't think I will need to do that and don't want to use the money for both. So what would you suggest going with the calcium or kalk on this size tank?

 

[big t]

That is a good size for a tank. I really like it apart from the bow. I am just not big on bows but that I just me I really like the front to back space that you are going to have, that will be really sweet. I agree that having the CL imputs in the bottom of the overflow is just a bad idea. If you do not put them in the back wall, put them in the bottom, just make sure that you can access them to clean the screens.

On the cal kalk issue. I started with a cal reactor. The reasons that you stated are the reasons that some people use both. They balance each other out with PH. Cal reactors dose some trace elements, as well as a lot of alk. Kalk doses only a ballanced amount of cal and alk. I am personally just running kalk right now for simplicity's sake while I am gone to germany. I would recommend starting with just a kalk mixer since they are a lot cheaper. That should be a good start. Then in a year or so once you get your reef somewhat stable and figured out you could then decide if you need a cal reactor. Cal reactors are much more expensive to get into with the Co2 system and all that.

 

[kimoyo]

Hey Tom thanks for the reply,
I'm not sure why I wasn't thinking about cleaning the overflow screens (now I see what Scott was saying), thats a good point. I guess I have to rethink the design a little. The only reason why I was going for 2 overflows is so I could have the CL drain in one and have a CL return from the overflows be on both sides of the tank. I really didn't want to do my overflow in the middle of the tank because I plan to have a center canyon setup so the middle will not have any rock in it. Any ideas of where I should put the overflows and if I should have two? I guess I could have two bottom CL drains one on each side of the tank and near the CL returns on the bottom of tank. I could build an enclosure also with eggcrate to keep fish and stuff out.

As far as the calc reactor goes, I was think of getting a kalk reactor at first because I didn't want to mess around with co2 but I changed my mind because of the kalk limitation. From what I've been reading it seems that people have both, maybe just because, but one does them fine. I just don't want to have both if I don't have to. But I have been doing 2-parts with my 55 and that's just annoying. If in the end I'm going to get a calc reactor, I would just rather get one now.

Thanks for the help.
Paul

 

[mojoreef]

Paul on the overflow in the closed loop its tough to do for a couple of reasons. On is that its a small space and will get sucked dry very fast, or at best will be kept low in which bubbles come back into play.

If you dont want to come of the back with plumbing for the closed loop come up from the bottom. I just wouldnt do it with a spray bar design. Go with pipe and 3/4 outputs with locline hat way you get more flow and can manipulate it better.
I evaporate about 10 gallons a day so the kalk works out pretty good. For me its a demand thing, tank is to damm big, lol. For you I would suggest kalk to start with for sure, until you have a demand that requires more then that. I am not a big beleiver in kalk reactors so I would say just get a bucket and gravity feed it with a kent float valve.


Mike

 

[kimoyo]

Hey Mike,

I appreciate you allowing me to bounce ideas off of you. But I don't know if I agree with you on this CL thing. This is pretty interesting to me because I've been thinking about this for about a week. When you have a sump drain, the water is being drained to another tank and then being pump from the other tank back into your display tank as you know obviously. If the pump and drain flows were matched perfectly (which is highly unlikely and probably impossible to do) and the overflow was filled with water then theoretically, the overflow water level should never fluctuate because what goes out, comes back in. The problem is that pumps are usually and have to be at a slower flow rate to avoid flooding so the overflow water level is at the standpipe height. But with a closed loop this isn't the case. If all the lines on the CL are filled with water then what goes out has to go back in because the water has no other option. So as the overflow water gets sucked out, the water is put back into the tank and flows back into the overflow at the same time. I could be really wrong with this and I'm not sure if I'm willing to take the chance on it. I could just have a hole drilled into the CL overflow and that will insure that the overflow is flooded.
But I am very worry about spacing in the overflow!!

If you dont want to come of the back with plumbing for the closed loop come up from the bottom. I just wouldnt do it with a spray bar design. Go with pipe and 3/4 outputs with locline hat way you get more flow and can manipulate it better.

Good idea!!

I evaporate about 10 gallons a day so the kalk works out pretty good. For me its a demand thing, tank is to damm big, lol. For you I would suggest kalk to start with for sure, until you have a demand that requires more then that. I am not a big beleiver in kalk reactors so I would say just get a bucket and gravity feed it with a kent float valve.

Yeah, originally I was just going to mix kalk into my top off water. Its just that I saw everyone with a calc reactor and I was thinking, do i need one. I'm designing my sump right now so I was trying to figure out how I would fit the reactor in. Thanks Mike and Tom for the input on this one.

So if have my CL drain on the bottom, any ideas about how I should do my overflow. I might only need one then.
Paul

 

[mojoreef]

No problem Paul thats what these boards are for. Look at it this way the overflow holds mybe 6 gallons of water, now match that up with what ever CL pump you ar planning.
If it were me I would run just one box and put a 1 1/2 drain line in it. It can handle 2000 gph which is more then you will ever use. For the closed loop coming from the bottom let me know what kind of aquascaping you are planning and we can come up with an idea frm thier.


Mike

 

[kimoyo]

Hey Mike,
Here's an update. I switched to a central overflow. I plan to have two piles of rock to create a canyon. I was actually going to hide the overflows from my previous design with the two overflows. In this situation the overflow would be quite visible. The inner holes in the bottom will be CL returns and the outer will be the CL drains. In the overflow, the holes will be for sump drain, CL return, and two sump returns (smaller holes on right, not sure if I will use both). Any suggestions?
Paul

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I plan on building an eggcrate/rock support structure around the CL drains.

 

[mojoreef]

Ok here is an idea for ya..kinda off the wall.
On the CL, I would make the holes in the bottom of the tank closest to the back wall your drain lines for the Closed loop. just come up a few inches and the elbow towards the back. That should give you easy access. For the returns of the CL I would do the following. have the return from the pump enter the 4 way OM unit but ask them to make the cam a 2 way with only two 1 1/2 outputs. From thier have the out puts come up the bottom through of the tank but using the front holes. As soon as the pipe comes out of the bottom I would attach a three way pcv (looks like a 90 but has an extra out on the side) on this I would attach 2 loclines with fans pointing towards the back and middle. then on top of that another one covering the front low. From here go up about a foot and do it over again. Basically you are going to build a tree on either output that will cover your low and high flow from the centers to the outer parts of the tank. With the OM you will be going from side to side. I think with the water flow bouncing off the walls of the tank and shifting from side to side you are going to get great anturnating currents and should have good flow to keep the crude off the bottom. Also you can use the tree to help you aquascape.

hard to explain so let me know if it makes sence


Mike

 

[kimoyo]

Hey Mike,
I had to think about this one. I got you on the CL drains, makes sense.
For the CL returns I understand what you are saying, basically make a two tier structure. This also seems doable and makes sense but in this case I would probably just use a MBV. The reason I was going with the OM was because it could vary the flow between several outlets. I was hoping to get more than two patterns of flow but you think it will be enough? It would elminate the need to take the CL thru the overflow. Another question would be if there would be enough flow going to the upper region because the water will follow the path a least resistance and I'm wondering if there will be strong flow a foot up also. Thanks for all the work thus far.
Paul

 

[kimoyo]

then again, I guess I could take the water up to the second tier first and back down to the bottom. I could also drill 2 more holes in the bottom and have 4 CL returns in the bottom instead of two and make a similar two tier structure, just a CL return going to each tier. But do you think the tank bottom could taken so many holes?
Paul

 

[mojoreef]

I would go with just the holes you have drawn on your plan. I would use 1 1/2 piping and then reduce them down to 1/2 locline. this would take care of any reduction to the upper tier.
I dont think going so many holes in the.bottom is the best idea. Another thing to keep in mind is that by going through the bottom is if thier is a problem with any of them you have to drain the tank.

Why dont you want to go through the back


Mike

 

[kimoyo]

The main reason is that with my 55, I had to go over the top and so there was a lot of plumping I did around the back and I just hate the look. So I said with this tank I would try to have everything in the stand except the chiller. And another important reason is that I'm going to soundproof the stand and so it would help if I could as little piping going out of the stand as possible to get the best results. Maybe I should rethink the idea, not sure now.

 

[mojoreef]

I hear ya. Careful on the sound proofing, sometimes that can keep all the heat in the stand (from the pumps) and make stuff real hot.


Mike

 

[kimoyo]

LOL Mike, everytime I have this great idea, your like don't do that. Haha, thanks though.
Paul

 

[kimoyo]

Hey Mike,
I was thinking about your suggestion you made yesterday and I realized how great of an idea that is!! I could make the first tier a rock support and the second tier can be hidden within the rocks. If I do it this way then I won't only have flow from back to front but in any direction I want, that’s amazing! It also limits the amount of holes I need, and if it doesn't work I could always drill the back later. So here are my update designs.

The single hole in the back will be my CL drain. I will put attach a tee to this, some pipe, and some 90's or 45's pointing up. The two holes parallel to each other in the middle are the CL returns, this is where the structure will be built. Any suggestions you have on the structure would be appreciated. I would like to minimize the head produced from elbows and such. I was thinking of using a 6-way cross immediately out of the returns and then to work the structure from there. For the second tier I would just add pipe to the top of the 6way cross and attach a 4-way cross to the pipe. I figure I can have 9 (1/2inch) outputs with 300-400gph flow per CL return using my Ampmaster 3600.

I put the overflow where it is because I think I can hide it well behind the rock structure. Do you think this is a good place for it considering my canyon aquascape idea? BTW I'm not sure of exactly how close the holes can be to the sides (and how big the overflow has to be) but I guess IAP can tell me. The two smaller holes are sump returns and the bigger one is the sump drain.

I also got rid of the return holes going thru the overflow box because I forgot about back siphoning if I turn the pumps off. So I will just go out over the overflow back into the tank.

What do you think about the holes? This way reduced how many I had but do you think the bottom should be safe?

Thanks for all the help.
Paul

 

[mojoreef]

It always helps to bouce stuff off folks..makes life a little easier.
On the cl returns, I like the 6 way on the bottom of the stack, but I would go street ell 90s from thier (the 3 way thing I was telling you about) this allows water to come out of your rock pile at different levels and reduces the ammount of holes to 8.
On the drain line for the cl I would get it close to the overflow, just off one of the sides. then you could get a little peice of black acrylic and glue it out side of the drainline to hide it from the main tank viewing area, kind of a blind.
On the returns from the sump just come out of the overflow box just below the teeth, then use locline. I would use these outputs as surface agitators, so close to the surface, if the pump stops the tank will drain to the locline and syphon break.


looking good paul


Mike