New Tank- 150gal setup help!

[FUBAR]

Hi. I'm Jon.

I'm starting up a 150gal reef tank.

Here's what I'd like to keep:
Fish:
Achilles Tang (yeah, I know it's a hard fish to keep)
Copperband Butterfly (maybe)
Mandarin Goby
3 McCoskers Wrasse
2 Ocellaris Clowns (pair)

That's it, I want to keep the fish load light.

Corals:
LOTS of ricordea. (florida and yuma)
Regular mushrooms. (discosoma)
Zoos.
Hairy mushrooms. (rhodactis)
Xenia
1 or 2 toadstools (sarcophytons i believe)
Some sort of brain coral, haven't decided which yet.
Long tentacle plate corals.
Branching Hammer coral
Branching Frogspawn

That's just so far...

Inverts:
Clams (maxima, crocea, etc.)
2-3 cleaner shrimp
8 hermits (i know some people hate them, but i like how they look. and i cant see so few doing much damage)
1 Emerald crab (mithrax? also, same as hermits)
Snails (don't know what kind, or how many)

That's an end result stocking list. I plan on letting the tank cycle for close to 6 months before adding corals. And then another 3-4 months before adding the fish.

As far as tank setup goes...
I'd like a DSB (150lbs of sand or so?) and around 200lbs of rock. I'm starting off with dry sand and lacerock. I'll buy a couple smaller pieces of liverock and some garf grunge to seed the system with little critters/coraline/etc.

There are two reasons for the DSB idea. One, I really like the look of sand. And two, I was contemplating a plenum. But I might not do the whole plenum thing, reasons for this will come later.

As for lighting, I was going to rig up a VHO setup. About 8 - 160w lights. (or were they 120w? i can't remember)

Also, the tank is all glass. I want a built in overflow, but I'm really hesitant to drill the glass. So other than the "ugly" factor of hangons... is there any other benefit to going through with drilling the tank? It's only about 18" wide (deep?), and I'd like to keep as much of that space as possible.

Another reason I want a built in overflow is that I'd like to do a closed loop setup. Actually, that's the main reason. But this can be done without the overflow, right? If I did some careful planning of where the piping would go, I could effectively hide it, and not have any holes drilled. Correct?

Now for the sump...

I was thinking of building my own, possibly 4ft long. Maybe more. I'm going to go as big with it as I can. I'd like to keep my skimmers/heaters/etc in the sump.

I'd also like to build in a refugium.
As for what would go into the fuge...
I want to use mud, LR, and chaeto.
I've seen some people but a layer of sand over the mud, is there a reason for this? Also, I know the rock will catch detritus, so I was thinking of installing some flanges/sheves/whatever for a piece of egg crate to sit on. Then put the rock on that. The egg crate would be an inch or two above the sand/mud. That way, with the rock suspended above the ground, they wouldnt really catch any of it. Think this would work?

This also leads me back to the issue of using a plenum. The basic function of both the plenum and refugium is to lower nitrates, right? So this would be redundant. I definately want the refugium, for the pod population I'll need to keep the mandarin. So this would get rid of the justification for a plenum, correct? If this is so, then I would go with less sand.

Ok.. enough talking.
Now a list of questions.

1) I would only get the Copperband if I had an aiptasia population. But, I think I read somewhere that they will nip at clams. This would be unacceptable, so if that's the case. The Copperband is off the list.

2) I've also heard similar about wrasse, would they be a problem? I also know that they would compete with the mandarin for food. BUT, with as much rockwork as I would have, would that be a problem?

3) I'd like to run two protein skimmers, but would it be necessary with a small fish population? Or would one be more than enough? Also, can you make any suggestions as to what skimmer I should get?

4) For the clowns, I'd like to avoid using anenomes. Will toadstools/hammers/frogspawn/long tentacle plates be sufficient?

5) Any tips for acclimating the tang?

6) What would be a good target as far as flow rate? Both for the tank and the sump.

7) I've run out of questions for the time being.

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[MCary]

Bag the plenum. No one uses them anymore. They suck.

If the copperband runs out of aptasia it will probably die.

Long tentacle plates are difficult.

We'll let the Achilles go, you already know, goodluck. As far as acclimating. That's not the problem. The problems are that the Tang has very delicate skin, even a net can damage it making skin infections like Ich a problem, the fish lives in the surf, it likes lots of flow and turbulance, and in the wild its usually found as a solitary critter. Its aggressive.

Probably don't want your closed loop going through your overflow. Separate intakes are fine.

Clowns don't need an anemone or even a coral. But if they want, they might take up with one of your corals. Mine are hosted by a Galaxia. I bought them a bubble tip anemone, but they don't want to move.

What does the wrasse your thinking of eat? If they eat copepods then the madarin may starve. Check it out. And BTW, the mandarin is not a goby, its a dragonette.

Fish waste feeds corals. Put the fish in first.

Might need more light for Maxima's. Crocea's I think are fine. VHO's 160 watt are 6 ft, 120 watt are 4 foot.

If you go with all liverock you can add fish in a month and corals in two. With dry sand and lacerock then the 6 month idea is a good one.

Mike

 

[Krish]

Sounds like a great plan! Should come out nicely

Another reason I want a built in overflow is that I'd like to do a closed loop setup. Actually, that's the main reason. But this can be done without the overflow, right?

You don't need an overflow for a closed loop. Infact, where overflows are concerned, they are really considerd a "true" closed loop.

I've seen some people but a layer of sand over the mud, is there a reason for this? Also, I know the rock will catch detritus, so I was thinking of installing some flanges/sheves/whatever for a piece of egg crate to sit on. Then put the rock on that. The egg crate would be an inch or two above the sand/mud. That way, with the rock suspended above the ground, they wouldnt really catch any of it. Think this would work?

The thing with mud or sand in a fuge and even live rock is you have to take care of it just like you would your main display. You neglect the sump, you get water quality issues. It will need to be vaccumed to remove any detritus etc so I'd look into the benefits a bit more before going into that. IMO, your tank already having a dsb and live rock, will supply you with all the filtration you will need so IMO, no point in giving yourself the extra headache of taking care of the sump as well. I'd just toss maybe a macro algae in there on a bare bottom and use that for nutrient export. Just my opinion though...People do it the way you want to all the time with great success. Just be prepared to take care of the sump as well

3) I'd like to run two protein skimmers, but would it be necessary with a small fish population? Or would one be more than enough? Also, can you make any suggestions as to what skimmer I should get?

Naw...I don't think 2 is necessary especially on the small bio-load. Also, one size accordingly wioll do the job all by itself. As for types of skimmers, it all depends on how you plan to plumb it in...Internally or externally. But in any event, here are some brands I'd suggest. Euroreef, ASM, AquaC EV series, Octopus (which is getting big) etc.

For the clowns, I'd like to avoid using anenomes. Will toadstools/hammers/frogspawn/long tentacle plates be sufficient?

Clown will pretty much host anything. I've seen my cousins clown host crazy hair algae:lol: No need for an anemone. My clowns are almost a year old to me and they don't have an anemone and are doing just fine


Gotta run...Be back later to see if I can add anymore

 

[burning2nd]

Hi Jon, im jon

kris nailed it,

why 2 skimmers, when one good one will cover.
flow rate, i would guess, at least 4 maxi 1200's or equivlent

sounds like you got your p's and q's together, all i can say is dont rush, be patient, and you will be fine.

at the end of the cylce the clean up crew first then your fish, then a longer wait till coarls.

sounds like your gonna have a nice tank, what size sump?

you might wanna think about a 55 gal sump/fefugem i just saw my friends sump the other day (looked great) had some cool coarls and suff growing in the sump as well, he had a DSB with all kinds of stuff goin on, but anyway back to the point.

you could probly get away with a nice section on your sump big enought for what ever you wanted. but nvm THis is all just MY IMO.

post pics

 

[Krish]

at least 4 maxi 1200's or equivlent

Do you mean for his sump???(LOL) He'll need more than that! That's under 1200 gph and some people use that alone for their sump return or even more. Steve's sump return on his 75gal is 1500 gph so definately will need a bit more to evenly spread the flow all over the tank to keep detritus in suspension and keep the corals happy

What would be a good target as far as flow rate? Both for the tank and the sump.

Now going back to this question I missed which is related to what I just posted, your sump flow rate will all depend on what you want to accomplish. Some people like a slower rate through their sump to give the skimmer more of a chance at in-coming water etc and some prefer more flow depending on what they plan to keep in the sump that may require a bit more flow. As for the tank, that is debateable. I always shoot for catching all deadspots however I need to accomplish that. You don't want detritus settling anywhere otherwise it will degrade water quality and fuel nuicance algae so you want to keep that detritus all in suspensin. Then like I mentioned the corals...They can't hunt for their food so it has to be brought to them so flow is essential. An example could be my tank but I'm a bit overboard according to some people but I have almost 4,000 gph of flow in my 38gal cube which works out to be a turnover rate of around 104 times per hour minus whatever headloss I have. Sounds like a lot, but my corals require a lot of flow and so I provide it. The flow isn't crazy strong out of each nozzle blasting the corals but I do get good strong coverage where I need it and the places that require a bit less flow, I have "Y"ed and use a different nozzle head to accomplish it. You'll definately have to play with it a bit to see what all you'll need and just keep in mind, your rocks and corals as they are added will change up the flow pattern some

 

[FUBAR]

Bag the plenum. No one uses them anymore. They suck.

Done!

If the copperband runs out of aptasia it will probably die.

They eat nothing else?

We'll let the Achilles go, you already know, goodluck. As far as acclimating. That's not the problem. The problems are that the Tang has very delicate skin, even a net can damage it making skin infections like Ich a problem, the fish lives in the surf, it likes lots of flow and turbulance, and in the wild its usually found as a solitary critter. Its aggressive.

Ah, I was under the impression the problems were stress related. But if I can't even net it without worrying if it got hurt... then forget it.

Probably don't want your closed loop going through your overflow. Separate intakes are fine.

You don't need an overflow for a closed loop. Infact, where overflows are concerned, they are really considerd a "true" closed loop.

Ah, it's just that most pictures I see, it looks like the come through the overflow. But good for me! No drilling!

Clowns don't need an anemone or even a coral. But if they want, they might take up with one of your corals. Mine are hosted by a Galaxia. I bought them a bubble tip anemone, but they don't want to move.

Clown will pretty much host anything. I've seen my cousins clown host crazy hair algae:lol: No need for an anemone. My clowns are almost a year old to me and they don't have an anemone and are doing just fine

I know they don't NEED one. But I do like to see how they behave when they have one. So I was just looking for a suitable replacement for an anenome. But I guess I don't have to worry since even algae will work!

And BTW, the mandarin is not a goby, its a dragonette.

I thought dragonettes were gobies, oh well. I'll probably call a lot of things by the wrong names. Just you watch!

If you go with all liverock you can add fish in a month and corals in two. With dry sand and lacerock then the 6 month idea is a good one.

I don't want to go all LR for a few reasons.
1) Expensive
2) Trying to lessen the chance of pests.
3) I can be really patient.

The thing with mud or sand in a fuge and even live rock is you have to take care of it just like you would your main display. You neglect the sump, you get water quality issues. It will need to be vaccumed to remove any detritus etc so I'd look into the benefits a bit more before going into that. IMO, your tank already having a dsb and live rock, will supply you with all the filtration you will need so IMO, no point in giving yourself the extra headache of taking care of the sump as well. I'd just toss maybe a macro algae in there on a bare bottom and use that for nutrient export. Just my opinion though...People do it the way you want to all the time with great success. Just be prepared to take care of the sump as well

Hmmm... if that's the case... then I'd rather use a tank just large enough for the skimmer(s) and a baffle to diffuse the micro bubbles. Perhaps just a little bit of room reserved for the macroalgae. Plus I want enough for pods to grow for the mandarin dragonette*.

Naw...I don't think 2 is necessary especially on the small bio-load. Also, one size accordingly wioll do the job all by itself. As for types of skimmers, it all depends on how you plan to plumb it in...Internally or externally. But in any event, here are some brands I'd suggest. Euroreef, ASM, AquaC EV series, Octopus (which is getting big) etc.

why 2 skimmers, when one good one will cover.

I only went with the idea of two smaller skimmers because I've seen a lot of people promoting the use of more than one. By "a lot" I mean "one or two", but it seemed to make sense at the time. Oh well, less money!

at the end of the cylce the clean up crew first

Which brings up another question, what snails would you suggest for a well rounded cleanup crew?

sounds like your gonna have a nice tank, what size sump?
you might wanna think about a 55 gal sump/fefugem i just saw my friends sump the other day (looked great) had some cool coarls and suff growing in the sump as well, he had a DSB with all kinds of stuff goin on, but anyway back to the point.

I wanted to go as big as possible on the sump. But this may not be necessary now that I'm rethinking the fuge. Though, it would still serve to increase water volume/stability. Hmmmm.....

post pics

I will! If I ever get a somewhat decent camera...

Now going back to this question I missed which is related to what I just posted, your sump flow rate will all depend on what you want to accomplish. Some people like a slower rate through their sump to give the skimmer more of a chance at in-coming water etc and some prefer more flow depending on what they plan to keep in the sump that may require a bit more flow. As for the tank, that is debateable. I always shoot for catching all deadspots however I need to accomplish that. You don't want detritus settling anywhere otherwise it will degrade water quality and fuel nuicance algae so you want to keep that detritus all in suspensin. Then like I mentioned the corals...They can't hunt for their food so it has to be brought to them so flow is essential. An example could be my tank but I'm a bit overboard according to some people but I have almost 4,000 gph of flow in my 38gal cube which works out to be a turnover rate of around 104 times per hour minus whatever headloss I have. Sounds like a lot, but my corals require a lot of flow and so I provide it. The flow isn't crazy strong out of each nozzle blasting the corals but I do get good strong coverage where I need it and the places that require a bit less flow, I have "Y"ed and use a different nozzle head to accomplish it. You'll definately have to play with it a bit to see what all you'll need and just keep in mind, your rocks and corals as they are added will change up the flow pattern some

Haha, I read your thread about your flow. It's pretty crazy, haha. There shouldn't be too much detritus ever hitting the ground, because there wont be much livestock. And I would think all the little critters in the sand could handle it. Though I'll need enough to keep as much of it suspended as possible. So I don't know. What's the reccommended turnover rate? 20 times? 30 times? 104 times? Bah! Flow confuses me.

 

[varpanus]

sounds like a good plan. listen to krish on the flowrate,he's had enough experience! you could definately go with like 10kgph. that's still less than 100xturnover.the high flow would probably help with the madarin too in the future. moving the food around so he can see it. I read that somewhere. you should find the macna website. ther's a couple disertations by smart people about different things.especially the one about food in a reef system.

 

[MarineTeng]

i would go with more flow then 4 maxi 1200s, i'd go with sieos if you want to go in tank stuff, more flow, less wattage, not as streamed too, flow shouldn't be how many times the tank entirely, placement is key so there is no dead spots
Live rock, if you want to reduce the chance of nuisance, supplement some good live rock that's nuisance free with dry rocks

 

[Krish]

Here's how I did a closed loop on my 75gal without having to drill. You will have to scan through the whole thread to see all the pics. Don't mind all the chit chat


http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13588&highlight=diy+closed+loop


About how much flow you will need on average...Couldn't say. I honestly can't remember the turnover rate that they say you should shoot for for starters, but if I find it, I'll add it here

 

[FUBAR]

Live rock, if you want to reduce the chance of nuisance, supplement some good live rock that's nuisance free with dry rocks

Yeah, that's what I was planning to do. Mostly dry rock, with a few pieces of LR to get it started.

Your not going to keep a Plate with just VHO's sorry you'll need more light power for that, also most Clams need more light, deep tanks will also require that depending on what your wanting to keep, I would study the corals your wanting to keep to make sure they will all work together & not harm or poison one & another. You have some in particular that would help to read up on.

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and go for MH, as I really do want to keep clams. The plate coral isn't something I must have, so no big deal there. It's also the only one that hasn't been kept by anyone I know. As for the others, I know several people who have kept them together without any issues, so I'm not too worried about them. I think it will have more to do with picking good places for all of them.

 

[MCary]

Good followup Buckwheat.

It isn't that a copperband won't eat anything else. It just might not eat anything else in your tank. Success is hit or miss with mostly misses.

Re-reading my post it seemed kinda harsh, I meant to steer you away from problems that alot of us have just starting out. Just starting out its fine to have your setup complex, but keep it simple. This may sound like a contradiction, but it isn't. I love toys. Technophile here. I try to automate everything. I have controllers, Ca reactors, fancy lights, automatic top-offs and water changers etc. Setting up and maintaining stuff like that is simple individually. As an entire system it appears quite complex but broken down not so much. Plus each element can be planned and implemented on a separate time table.

But setting up the right conditions for difficult fish and demanding corals is a complete system that doesn't break down well into smaller components. The entire system needs to be planned and implemented at the same time. Experiance makes alot of that second nature. But a newbie may forget a variable, see the system fail and get turned off by the whole hobby. Then his next post starts: "I'm getting back into the hobby, is the aquarium that I have stored in my garage the past ten years still any good"

Sincerely,

Mike Buzz Kill

PS Your research and ideas look solid. You should do fine.

 

[FUBAR]

Haha, don't worry. I didn't think it was harsh. Just blunt.

I want to have everything planned out well before I actually start purchasing anything. And I'd like to have all the equipment necessary before putting in the fish and coral. So that I dont... say... but sufficient lights for now, but then need to upgrade them a few months later when I purchase a new/more light demanding coral.

Here's a few more questions....

1) What about spraybars?
2) What are seaswirls? I've seen them mentioned a few times, but not any explanations as to what they are.
3) I should place the rock how I want it first, right? That way I know how to direct the flow.
4) Is a sump even necessary? Considering it would really only be used for the skimmer... couldn't I just go with a hangon skimmer? Which would also get rid of the need for overflow boxes...

 

[MCary]

Views differ, these are mine:

1. Spray bars just restrict your flow and cause microbubbles if placed on the surface. The one application I like them for is the lower back corner of the tank to blow debris out from under the rocks in a bare bottom appliction. Other than that, I don't like em.

2. A seaswirl is just a motorized outlet jet. Your closed loop or sump return pump outlet go into the tank via the jet and the seaswirl moves back and forth distributing the flow.

3. Yep, or the other way around, place your rock based on the flow. Your idea is better.

4. No and yes with caveats. A sump is not necessary, but I would guess most people who have them would not give them up. The advantages, conveniances, and appearance of tanks with sumps is obviously better.

Hang on skimmers are usually small, often cause micro bubble problems or have unsightly bubble traps. There are sumpless skimmers. Don't know how well they work.

Mike

 

[Krish]

What about spraybars?

A spray bar is exactly what it sounds like...Usually it is a length of pvc pipe, capped on one end with a lot of holes drilled into it. The water is pushed through these little holes a high pressure and is usually used for surface aggitation sometimes (which like Mike just said sucks and may cause micro-bubbles) or low in the tank to keep detritus in suspension. My personal opinion, I rather just blast the bottom with open flow than through a spray bar but that is just me

What are seaswirls? I've seen them mentioned a few times, but not any explanations as to what they are.

Here's a photo of one. http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...uct_Code=SEASWIRL3/4&Category_Code=Wavemaking
It just sits on the surface of your tank and rotates 180 degrees about every minute or so. I had one on my 75gal and it provided great random flow. I figured why not make good use of my sump return so I bought one. They have the 1/2 inch model (good for 550 gph) the 3/4 like I had (good for 850gph) and then the 1 inch (good for 1150 gph) and all you see from it in the tank is the lockline nozzle head rotating under water.

I should place the rock how I want it first, right? That way I know how to direct the flow

Exactly...the more you change up your rockwork afterwards, the more you may have to re-adjust your flow

Is a sump even necessary? Considering it would really only be used for the skimmer... couldn't I just go with a hangon skimmer? Which would also get rid of the need for overflow boxes

No...A sump isn't necessary, but is a good thing to have. The more water you have the more stable your system is. Also, good for hiding away un-sightly equipment, but not necessary by any means. Ever seen Sherman's tank? If so, he doesn't run a sump and look how good it looks. If you haven't seen it, let me know and I'll send you a link

 

[burning2nd]

holly cow, that swivel power head thing is $$

 

[FUBAR]

The reason I asked if a sump was really necessary is because, in order to have one... I'd have to build a new stand. If it's gotta be done... it's gotta be done.

As for the spraybar, let's say I set one up to run the length of the tank in the back. And set it about an inch above the level of the sand.
Think this would effectively keep stuff from settling on the ground, without kicking up the sand? Not necessarily highflow, just enough to keep junk moving in the water?

As for the seaswirl, if it rotates 180 degrees, I would assume the best way to make use of this is mid tank? Or would more towards the sides serve better for random flow? (bouncing of the walls and such)

Another thing, since I have cutoff the achilles tendo..... tang.... Any suggestions on another fish? I like Powder Blues, but I've heard they can be just as difficult.

 

[FUBAR]

That's why I'm asking a lot of questions and throwing out a lot of what if's. The more I know, the better off I'll be.

 

[Krish]

As for the seaswirl, if it rotates 180 degrees, I would assume the best way to make use of this is mid tank? Or would more towards the sides serve better for random flow? (bouncing of the walls and such)

How the sea-swirls are designed, then only rotate 90 degrees each way so you can set them to rotate 90 degrees from any point and back. So take Chuck's old 75gal for eg. He had his mounted to the side of the tank so the sea-swirl start point was straight out and then it rotated all the way around to the back wall and back. With mine, it was mounted in the center so my start point 30 degrees to one side around to 30 degrees to the other side so it all depends on you. Here are some pics to show you what I mean...

Attachments 1 and 2 show you where mine was situated in my old 75gal
Attachment 3 shows how much sits in the water of a sea-swirl
Attachment 4 shows Chuck's old 75gal

 

[Krish]

If you've never seen it before, look at the last pic on this page. This is Sherman's tank that has no sump at all!

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11059&page=12

 

[Fishead77]

Hi. I'm Jon.

I'm starting up a 150gal reef tank.

Hi Jon, I'm a saltwater addict too. Welcome, you will find lots of help on this forum.