No skimmer system

[Reefdaddy1]

So just a question here, but has their been any study, or simular showing how bad a skimmer is for a reef tank??
I would also like to see some systems that have been skimmerless for a long period, I cant remember any off the top off my head?


Mike

Ya know Mike, You may wanna talk Leng Wey of Eco systems. His 400 Sps tank I think been running for 4 or 5 years now skimmerless. He may shed some light on it for ya. I have talked to him extensively and he is very approachable. Call his Shop and he picks up the phone. I think he owns a lFS in Cali as well.

 

[liveforphysics]

As far as SPS corals browning in an unskimmed tank, these frags are from Mikes increadible tank. They have been in my tank for about a month, now, its possible that in more time they will brown, but so far things are looking exellent, and growth is now measureable with a ruler.
My better camera is at my parents house at the moment, so I took these with a no zoom, no macro, no options, point and click $39 digi cam. These are taken with no actinic lights on (because I know you can make anything look blue and florecent with actinics, even a sheet of white paper).

That poor pocilipora was doing really well for a long time until I mounted those SPS frags around it, now it looks like they are killing it, but it doesnt bother me much because I have a large mother colony on the other side of the tank that has been growing like a weed still.

Now, those tan looking corals look really bright neon green in person, I'm not sure why the camera makes them look so tan, but anyone is welcome to come on over and take a peek for themselves if they think that colors cant be bright in a tank without a skimmer. When I have the actinics on, its like a florecent neon color blast, but thats kinda cheating.

 

[liveforphysics]

Don W- With reguards to a small ball of chaeto, I took some pics for you about 30mins ago. Here they are.

Heres the filter on the 30gal

Heres the filter on the frag tank

Heres the filter on the 55gal

This is to give you an idea at the quanity of algae. Thats a full sized spot light bulb in the pic to give you an idea of scale. I would estimate that mass at about 10lbs of algae (after dripping dry).

You wanted to see a dense thick mat of chaeto?

Now, I harvest about every 2-3 weeks or so down to about this amount.

After a couple weeks, it looks like the above pics that I took today for you.

Anybody think when you pull out a 5gal bucket filled with dense thick algae ever couple weeks that you arent exporting a hell of a lot of nutrients?

 

[DonW]

Don W- With reguards to a small ball of chaeto, I took some pics for you about 30mins ago.

Cool thats more like what I'd expext to see to filter a 30 and 55 ALL of the time even after harvesting. I wonder if when you harvest down so far, is there a decline in filtration for a few weeks? Is there a size recomendation for refugiums. It seems to me that you would need about half that of the display constantly full of macro?? Youve got me concidering adding a fuge.

Thanks
Don

 

[Skimmy]

a overflow split into two supply pipes, then one to each area, sump and skimmer, then each flowing to a third gathering area and return pump. The skimmer would get to see the water for a long time. The fuge would get to see the water for a long time.

that is exactly what i do when i add a fuge in the sump, otherwise i have the fuge above the system and feed it with a small pump seperate from the overflow, usually from the main display.
i have always had the best success when combining both skimmers and refugiums, and i havent had problems with the caeto dying because of skimming as long as it has it's own "fresh" water supply seperate from the skimmer

 

[mojoreef]

Reefdaddy he is the MM guy right??? do you got a link bud.


Mike

 

[NeuroDoc]

What do you all think of the idea, of a very slow supply to a skimmer, and a very slow supply to a seperate fuge.
I know that ballancing the flow would be difficult, the two systems would have to have a ballance tube so that if flow patterns changed over time any build up would feed the other system.
Or a overflow split into two supply pipes, then one to each area, sump and skimmer, then each flowing to a third gathering area and return pump. The skimmer would get to see the water for a long time. The fuge would get to see the water for a long time.
Its just a idea, its a thought for taking the best of both systems, and trying to minimize the downsides of both systems.
What do youall think?

I think this is a great idea, and exactly what I plan to do when I get my large tank. It is also what slickdonkey is doing on his new 240g. The sump design I plan on using (and slickdonkey has already built) will be a knock off of the model F sump/refugium from Melev's Reef, built to fit my stand.

I am slowly working on a 120g tank, and am planning on flow through my fuge at maybe 100gph, maybe less. Still working on exactly how much flow throught the fuge. It will be easy, just a Y and ball valves on the return pipe. Very easy to adjust the flow.

 

[Reefdaddy1]

Reefdaddy he is the MM guy right??? do you got a link bud.


Mike

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html And Iam sorry I got his Name wrong Leng Sy. My bad

 

[big t]

Hey Luke, I have been slowly setting up my fuge for about a month now. I am about to the point where I need to get some lighting and actually start it up. Do you have a picture of the packaging for the bulbs that you are using from HD?

 

[DonW]

Tom,
Take a look at Melev's web site. He has some pics and bulb test.

Don

 

[Flatlander]

I,m still reading parts of this thread, so take my comments as that.

I cant comment on how Inlands systems look or run, as I have not seen them in person but I run a large turf scrubber. Its been on several tanks now, over the last 4 yrs. or so. I cant say I have had great success with it,as the sole filtration on any tank, which is what its supposed to do.

I have skimmer on most of those tanks to supplement the scrubber. And I have given the scrubber many chances to do it alone. Believe me when I say, I would love for the scrubber technology to work as advertised. But for whatever reason, its beyond me. {and I,m not a new aquarist, being at this for over 30yrs.}.

Also, since owning one, I find very few other aquarists who use them or are even interested and some of the ones I have know, have taken them down and stored them in the closet. I wonder why that is?

I,m moving, so my 180 cube is taken down. My turf scrubber sits on salt buckets, filtering my 55g tub, which is where the residents I have left, reside. Not sure what the new tank in the new place will be, but its unlikely it will be run with my turf scrubber. And thats sad, as I wanted it to work well, not factoring in its huge costs.

I must say my tanks have never had any nitrites, nitrates, ammonia or phosphates, which I assume is because of the scrubber. But then, I have know many other aquarists that just run skimmers and have the same success?

 

[liveforphysics]

this is what they look like inside.

sorry camera has no macro

 

[MikeS]

No Actually Luke has a RUGF with coarse CC, you seem to have "missed" that hey Mike ?

The tank that used to be my favorite has no UGF, a DSB that has sand stiring critters in it, and a fuge filled with cheato for export.

He's got more than one setup, one happens to have a DSB. I was simply trying to make a parallel between what he is seeing and what I saw when I had a DSB.

It's nearly impossible to get a group of reefkeepers to agree on just about anything . Our philosophies differ depending on our individual observations and experiences, and what we believe the explanations are for those observations and experiences. It would be almost impossible for me to convince somebody who is anti-skimmer or anti-BB or anti-whatever that what I do is necessarily the best way, and it would be equally difficult for that same person to convince me that their way is superior. Is it because I'm stubborn or unwilling to learn or unopen to new ideas? No, not at all. It's because I've had many different approaches to marine and reef keeping in the past, I've found one that is working well for me, and makes sense to me. If I feel that there is a better approach in the future and I'm convinced, I just may try that instead...

Having said that, I would say that no matter what approach you take to reefkeeping, one of the most important things to do is to research said approach as much as you can, and recognize the pro's and con's of that system, and acknowledge the limitations of said system.

MikeS

 

[Krish]

Mike...Your cool. You went from a DSB to BB. You may still be in denial though because you still think you are the "Dark Lord of the Sand", but you did do the switch

This is basically an echo, but It will always boil down to what works best for you. I'll never knock anyone for what they do. I may question it to better understand their approach (which I think everyone does to an extent), but by all means, everyone should go for what works for them. I think it is awesome their is diversity in the hobby otherwise we would be sitting here right now with nothing to discuss. Once it always remains a discussion...I think we will be here for a long time because there is still a lot left for us to still learn

 

[MikeS]

Mike...Your cool. You went from a DSB to BB. You may still be in denial though because you still think you are the "Dark Lord of the Sand", but you did do the switch

Well, it wasn't an easy decision to make, and "fate" did play a rather large part in my decision to give BB a try....but the BB approach did make sense to me, and was the most logical choice for my situation at the time. I've only had it around 6 months now, hardly long enough to call it "successful" in my case yet, but I will say I'm happy with and impressed with my results thus far. It does have a few drawbacks IMO, but then again what system doesn't? Again, I think that's very important to recognize the drawbacks and limitations of any system and work around and within them, IMO that's one of the best ways you can increase the likelyhood you will be successful reguardless what particular discipline you chose to follow...

MikeS

 

[liveforphysics]

Flatlander- If you wouldnt mind, I would love to see some pics of an ATS.
I've never used one or even seen one in person, but I'm always curious about creative methods.

Just for kicks, would you like to try out packing your ATS up with chaetomorpha rather than turf algae? And spending 20$ on a 4 pack of homedepot bulbs and running it? If you are interested, just let me know how much chaeto you need.


Don W- You inquired with reguards to a concern about the amount of algae I leave in the sump after harvesting being insuficient or potentially insufficient. Chaeto is an algae that is actually just a stack of pankcake like single cells. It grows by adding cells, and the size of these cells stay (roughly) the same size due to a ridgid and firm structure. What I'm trying to elude to, is that the quanity is not important, simply the rate of increase in quanity is important (as its only helping as it increases in biomass, which will soon be harvested).
So, to answer your question, if growth is nutrient limited (which it seems to be for me, since I can never get dectable nutrients without just dumping in NO3 and PO4, and even then its only a matter of hours before its undectable), then I do not belive the quanity makes any difference on the water quality. Basically, what I belive is as long as the chaetos biomass is rapidly increaseing to the limit of the introduction of nutrients to the tank, then it makes no difference (IMO, and observation).

 

[liveforphysics]

Don W-

I just stumbled across this acticle by Randy Farley, its about Iodine effecting Chaeto, but it happens to document some growth rates for the algae, along with going over how important the lighting setup being correct is.

Here was a line that really stood out to me.

"It turns out that the Chaetomorpha sp. grew tremendously during the course of this study. One specimen grew to more than six times its starting weight during this 10-day period, and even the slowest specimens grew to more than three times their starting weight."

Now, he documented the algae increaseing its mass by a factor of 6x in just 10 days. I try to tell people that if your macro isnt at least doubleing every week then you need to change the lighting, but I think most people think I am exagerateing the growth rates or something, well, seeing this professionally documented doubleing rate averageing 2-3days really suprized me. I swear sometimes I studdy the fuge for a few minutes, then take a nap, wake up, and look again and see growth. Now I actaully belive its not just my imagination.

Now, those growth rates are faster than the growth rates I recall being quoted for the ATS filters. Does this indicate that chaeto, besides not leaking gelvin to yellow the water, or risking spreading into the display, actually can sink nutrients for removal FASTER than an ATS?

Inspires some interesting thoughts in my head.

 

[mojoreef]

Gee Luke maybe it has something to do with you dosing water from your FW tank that is laidened with "80ppm NO3, and about 3ppm PO4 "??????????? :idea:


Mike

 

[big t]

LOL Mike that could have something to do with it.

So I have a question about why my fuge may have failed the first time around (at least it failed in my eyes) I had it in the middle section of my sump using the origional bulb that Melev was using a couple years ago. I ran it with cheato and a couple pieces of LR. The chaeto did grow very slowly but what the fuge seemed to do best was grow nasty cyno all over the walls as you can see in this attachment below. I was running a very weak skimmer at the time that didn't do much compared to what I am running these days. I ran the light on a 24/7 time. The cyno actually grew all over and in the chaeto also. What do you guys think? My tank at the time suffered badly from short red turf type algea that I got from some snails.

View attachment 2124

Thanks Luke for showing off the bulb. I hope you didn't break it just to get a picture of it

 

[Krish]

Tom...It's funny you should say that about the cyno. I run a light on my sump eventhough I don't have a macro in it yet and it use to do the same thing...Grow crazy cyno! I use to have to vacuum it out weekly. Now that the tank has aged a bit more, I can't get anything to grow on its own in my fuge section of my sump, even with running the lights 24/7 for 2 weeks to see if it would (i regularily run it on an alternated photo period from the tank). I'm wondering if it is just because my tank is finally cycled and there aren't really any excess nutrients available for it to grow? I have a nitrate test kit, but it is old and not sure if it is accurate so I don't test with it and I don't have a phosphate test kit, so not sure if there are detectable amounts of phosphates or nitrates in my system. In any event, as a result of that, I'm wondering if chaeto would grow if I put some in there now? I don't have any algae anywhere in my tank other than the little bit of green that wants to grow on my glass, but defianately no hair or cyno anywhere...I guess a few tests will determine what is going on...