Ozone alters Skimmate???

[snowstar]

Hey folks... I read this site a lot and have learned more here than possibly any other board. Really! I'm not just saying that cause I want you to answer a question!

This is a goofy one and I am probably not thinking clearly today.. So I apologize up front. A friend of mine made the comment that when he runs ozone his skimmate becomes very clear and thin. He is sort of - of the opinion that the ozone cleans his water up so much that the skimmer has nothing to pull out. His tank is a 75 with a DSB a variety of lps/sps corals several fish - most would consider his tank moderately to heavily stocked. I'm not sure how much ozone he is really running nor am I 100% sure of just how much flow he gets in the tank... no CL's jsut flow to a refugium and power heads. His skimmer is one I've never heard of it's an aquaclear 150... the only reference I can find to the skimmer is on the hagen site in conjunction with one of the aquaclear filters....

All that said, I thought ozone made skimmers more efficient ---- ie better skimmate production not shut them down.... any help/ideas as to why this is happening or if you all (those who run ozone) could let me know what your experiences are --- with skimmate color, amounts/day I would so appreciate it. I'm sort of of the opinion that the his skimmer is just so bad it can only get the grossly large organic particles out and that is why the tank seems to not have anything to skim. But I could be wrong.... maybe ozone really is the cure all and I really do not need the monster dual beckett that I currently have on my 180...

 

[mojoreef]

Hiya Snowstar glad to see you posting and welcome aboard. When some one is skimmeing normal they are mechancically seperating the organics from the water and then reattaching them to the air bubble interface. When ozone is used it is an active molecule, so this mole seeks out and oxidizes the organics..so skimming is passive and ozone is active filtration. When the two are combined you are going to get alot of the organics oxidized in the recation chamber and then the small amount of left over is removed, so yes the skimate cold look clearer no problem.
When folks say terms like "super charged my skimmer" it is not that it is going to make more skimate or foam, it IS that it is going to remove more organics because it is doing more to eliminate them.

that make sence??


Mike

 

[Illusion]

Well This is kinda funny cause I was just testing that Theory in my rock skimming tub... Running ozone (expecially a large unit) pretty much shuts down a skimmer... The Ozone works in a simular way to the Skimmer in the matter of It removes Organics as well... It pretty much cleans up the water and the skimmer pics up what It cant... From my little test my huge Dual Beckett didnt really do much when the Ozone was on and Running... I also seem to Enjoy the Benifits of Ozone just make sure you read up on all the bad and precautions to take prior to deciding to run it.. that o3 can be some pretty nasty stuff

James

 

[Boomer]

Well This is kinda funny cause I was just testing that Theory in my rock skimming tub... Running ozone (expecially a large unit) pretty much shuts down a skimmer...

That is not funny at all and is normal. A skimmers operation is a function of temp, salinity, dissolved organics and surface tension. When you crank up a skimmer, with to much ozone, you will raise the surface tension, which will make less foam. At the same time you are making "less stuff" skimmable by hydrophobic action, due to ozone oxidation. On the other hand, if the ozone is controlled at the right level, a lower level, it will increase skimmer foam due to a slight lowering of surface tension. So, when that much ozone is used and the skimmer has much less foam, all those oxidized organics are going where..............

How does one achieve that ? The skimmer needs to be the correct size for x gals of water. The ozone dial should then be set to .3 - .5 mg / gal net water. It may require a little tweaking.

Other considerations are;

1. Air dryer. I do not care what anyone tells you. Humidity has a great effect at reducing Ozone production. Furthermore, ozone reacts with moisture and ambient air to produced Nitric Acid inside the ozone unit. This can damage the unit. Furthemore, guess what happens when that nitric acid vapor hits your water in the skimmer.

HNO3 - --------> H+ + NO3-

Do you know what these are and what they do in water


2. All ozonated water should pass through GAC post skimmer, to collect the bromine bleach, that is being manufactured by the reaction of ozone with the bromide ion.

3. Ozone units, of the corona-discharge type, should be cleaned bimonthly. As the junction between the glass electrode and metal tube like to collect "things"

Here is what happen to a guy using a brass fitting post ozone, which normally is safe. He decided he did not need an air dryer. What do you think that blue liquid is and where do you think it may go

 

[Oscapus]

When I started using ozone, it pretty much shut down my oversized EV180 skimmer. Any skimmate in the cup is pretty clear, and I always wonder how it got there, never seeing any foam. My tank water is crystal clear and beautiful.

 

[snowstar]

OK -- So In theory Mike I was right about the efficiency I was just sort of wrong in the practical appliacation. In that it is possible to "see" cleaner looking skimmate since you do have less organics to extract out. That actually makes sence --- now for Boomer - if I understand in theory what you are saying about proper dosing and levels of ozone creating vastly different surface tensions again impacting skimmer efficeincy then that could be what is causing his skimmer to behave the way that it is .... but I'm not sure because he doesn't report less foam just very clear skimmate. almost like the skimmer is running to wet. I guess ultimately I just need to go ahead and bite the bullet - I've intended to run ozone for a long time to finish cleaning up the water and increasing my PAR values, I've just never implemented.... maybe it's time.

 

[Boomer]

If ozone is shutting down a skimmer you are using to much.

How the liquid got there, with no foam, would be water vapor settling in the cup.

If one is using a skimmer with ozone and the ozone is shutting it down, with little or no skimmate you are wasting your money on a skimmer. One should use a Ozone reactor, which is more effective.

Here is one here where they more or less stold my idea that I gave to Leo Wojcik( MTC) . I must admit it looks like a nice unit and better than his.

http://www.emperoraquatics.com/commatomizer.php

Leo no longer makes my atomized reactor but still sells his old design. Mine was rather expensive .
http://www.marinetechnical.com/

The low-pressure reactor is fed by a venturi injection system, using its vacuum as the oxygen/ozone introduction. Using full cone spray nozzles, the incoming water/gas mixture is dispersed via the nozzles. As this mixture is fed into the vessel, the gas under pressure (apx. 5 to 10 psi) consumes at least 2/3 of the space inside the vessel while the tiny water droplets are forced through it. This method is far superior to that of the bubbling (air stone) method. The atomizer does exactly what its name implies; it atomizes the treated water into a gas vapor under low pressure.

My whole concept that I gave to Leo 15 years ago :lol:

 

[Boomer]

Snow

but I'm not sure because he doesn't report less foam just very clear skimmate. almost like the skimmer is running to wet.

Yes, that could very well be the reason if he still has good foam. My point was ozone shutting down the skimmer, where there will be hardly any foam. There are many ways to run a skimmer, it is an on going debate, wet foam, dry foam, clear foam, dirty foam, etc....What we need are reall assays as to what is in the skimmate.

I've intended to run ozone for a long time to finish cleaning up the water and increasing my PAR values,

You can do the same thing with PAC (Powdered Activated Carbon). But it is not very user freindly :lol:

 

[snowstar]

thanks for the PAC idea.... i think I'll stick with the 'zone. Seriously though thanks guys for the ideas, knowldege and observations. I think that I am understanding ozone and skimming a bit more. The atomizer looks very interesting but possibly difficult to implemnet in most setups/scenarios unless there are more models/sizes available to the average aquarist. I have not really looked yet.... though. Let me ask one other question, if I may. Boomer, you said "If one is using a skimmer with ozone and the ozone is shutting it down, with little or no skimmate you are wasting your money on a skimmer. One should use a Ozone reactor, which is more effective." Is that in reference to all skimmers or just skimmers that are not that effective to start with? I mean, I have a lifereef VS2-24 on one 20 and one on a 125 they have always pulled out either 8 -10 oz of black skim or 32 oz of very dark skim. I'm setting up a dual beckett on my 180.... I have never ran ozone. I'm considering adding ozone to the 180 since it is primarily sps ... now I'm almost feeling like I could have better spent the money that I spent on the skimmer... will ozone properly dosed really impact a skimmer that is setup to run wet (dark tea colored skim) that greatly? Or am I missing the whole gist of what you have been so patiently trying to explain? Skimmers are almost useless when properly running 'zone? :?:

Thanks ---- hopefully soon to be :idea:

 

[snowstar]

oh those oz measurements were per day... 8-10 per day or 32 per day depending on dry vs wet settings....

 

[Boomer]

Is that in reference to all skimmers or just skimmers that are not that effective to start with?

This is only in ref for those that want to jack up their skimmers with to much O3, to the point the ozone shuts it down with little foam. If one is going to do this why use a skimmer.

8-10 per day or 32 per day depending on dry vs wet settings....

Actually not, it is mg / hr /gal or mg / hr /l

Well, if his tank is 75 gals, first a 75 gal can not even hold 70 gals filled to the lip with nothing in it but water. Tank gal is base on outside dimensions. If he has a sump, lets just ASSUME he has 75 gals total.

.3 - .5 mg / gal x 75 gal net water = 22.5 - 37.5 mg setting on the dial. If he is not using an air dryer we need to subtract a least 30 % of that or 15.7 - 26.5 mg, ruff output, with dial set at 22.5 - 37.5 mg. So, he is not using to much or to little O3, except at that 8 - 10 setting which is very little ozone.

With the std settings of .3 - .5 mg / gal, with an air dryer and proper air flow, one usually wil not encounter foam problems. Remember, that air flow is a very important issue, so if you go with ozone make sure you find out from the manufacture as to what air flow CFM air pump you use. If it is a venturi action skimmer you need to check what its air flow is. In the olden days I use to use an air flow meter and a RH (Relative Humidity) gauge, pe-ozone, so I knew better as to where I was at. You will never know where you are at without expensive equipment. Now'A-days people just tweak them by observation ( which is fine with me), by tuning the skimmer and ozone dial so you get a good foam or lets say the foam one may want i.e., wet, dry, semi-wet. It is a choice

 

[snowstar]

ahh misunderstanding .... the 8-10 or 32 oz depending on dry vs wet ---- is a measurement of skimmate output of my skimmers..... I'm trying to extrapolate out to my current skimmers - if I chose to start to run ozone how much will the addition of .3 to .5 mg/gal will impact my skim production... sorry I combined two different situations into one post and did not clearly state that!

 

[Illusion]

Boomer... First off thanks for the Complete run down... I must say that when I ment "shut down" the skimmer at the setting that I had It prior to ozone wasnt producing very much skimmate at all... foam was still there It was just a much cleaner foam..

My Ozone unit I picked up rather cheap from another hobbiest as a "lets see what this baby can do" type thing.. Its a very cheap Chinese model Enlay 300u and has a built in airpump... Therefor hooking up a drier is impossible... Its supposed to do 200mg/hr but I figure when you drop the 30% that puts it down to roughly 140mg/hr Which In theory If I ran it for a few hours here and there a day should be Semi Effective to make the unit worth the few frags that I gave for it to help in the clarity of the tank...

On my Liverock curing bin where the ozone/skimmer is now... I just put the skimmer on to help and since the ozone was already hooked up to the skimmer I was just playing to see if it actually made a diff... IMO it shut down the skimmer as nothing was really coming out of the drain line... but not dissipated the foam to a point of not producing.. Were already talking the Skimmer is already Way overpowered for the 100g stock tub my liverock is in as it is... The skimmer is a 40" tall dual beckett ran off of a pcx100 (1500gph) pump...

James

 

[Boomer]

Snow

ahh misunderstanding .... the 8-10 or 32 oz depending on dry vs wet

NO !! That is called Boomy not paying atention. I saw that thread and then the numbers in the next thread and ASSUMED

if I chose to start to run ozone how much will the addition of .3 to .5 mg/gal will impact my skim production

There is no way of telling until you run it

Jim


I must say that when I ment "shut down" the skimmer

To me, from the olden days, that means no foam and I took it as the ozone killed it based on.......


Running ozone (expecially a large unit) pretty much shuts down a skimmer...

and

From my little test my huge Dual Beckett didnt really do much when the Ozone was on and Running


Meaning it use to have foam and the flippin' ozone killed it

Its a very cheap Chinese model Enlay 300u and has a built in airpump...

1. Is this a UV bulb unit or corona discharge.

2. Is that the model number

3. How may net gals do you have ? That unit is for like a 500 gal tank !!! Even at 140 mg that is like 300 gal of water. I guess you are saying 100g stock . That will kill a skimmer by any means. That only requires a 50 mg unit.

4. Is there a dial on it ?

Is this it. I can find nothing on a Enlay 300u
http://www.cashidoozone.com/feat.htm

 

[Illusion]

1. Is this a UV bulb unit or corona discharge.

Corona Discharge

2. Is that the model number
yeah.. here is the webpage.. http://www.ozone.enaly.com/OZX-300U.htm

3. How may net gals do you have ? That unit is for like a 500 gal tank !!! Even at 140 mg that is like 300 gal of water. I guess you are saying 100g stock . That will kill a skimmer by any means. That only requires a 50 mg unit.

I would say there is about 70g max in there... Its just a rubbermain 100g stock tank with about 270lbs of Pukani Liverock in it... Just need the Rock Cured ASAP (Im Impatient) LOL... the tank that I plan on using the Ozone on is a 224g tank with 75g sump.. Of course take everything into consideration I am probably at about 250g... When I had it going on my 224g tank I just turned it on for a few hours and then shut it off... Its a very cheap unit which puts off a lot of noise to where my Cordless k/b and mouse on the pc freak out and my xbox controllers tweak out as well... LOL... So It very rarely is on more than a few hours and never at night while sleeping.. usually if I leave for a few hours I turn It on and then shut It off when I get back... Just a temp solution to see if a $300+ unit is actually worth it or if it just another toy..


4. Is there a dial on it ?

Nope No Dial... Just power button and fuse


James

 

[jlehigh]

Holy Pete! 45.00 bux and plug'n'play. The lack of a dial would be concerning but if it works this seems to be a pretty sweet little unit.

Boomer: I would love to hear what your take on this model is. Red flags, good features, bad features, risks.. I wouldn't mind runnign it from time to time on my system with a overall volume of 380Gal... I ask only because I don't know one unit from the next. Originally I was looking at the Sanders unit at Aquatic Eco but it would of course be 300+ when all is said and done..

 

[Illusion]

Boomer.. I noticed on their website that the 300u since It has a built in pump cant use the air drier however I noticed that one of the 300u units did and had a seperate port on the outside to hook up to the air drier... So It got me thinking... I took the unit apart and it has the same potential to hook up the air drier to It but I would just have to drill thru the case... Has the input port on the inside of the unit with cotton stuck in the hole.. probably to reduce noise...

James

 

[jlehigh]

Hey James they also have a unti that comes with an air-dryer already hooked up.

 

[snowstar]

that's pretty much what I expected.... won't know until I try it. I've got a few other tank projects that I need desperately to complete before I can think about ozone. I was just very curious since my friend had made the skmmate comment.... Thank you all very much for all the information - seriously..... Now I'm probably going to go back over to the skimmer 101 thread and ask a few questions... of you guys... i'm re-doing the filter on a 180. Even with over 13 years of reef keeping experience and quite a bit of success - I feel like such a newbie reading most of these threads --- and I think how did I ever keep these animals alive ... mertensii over 9 years ans several lps over 12 years....

 

[Boomer]

I do not like the no dial, that is allot of O3

You can get an air dryer, it is on that same page. I wonder why yours was that way

Specifications:

Model Name: OZX-300U
Ozone Output: 200mg/h
Pump Output: 2-3L/min
Pump Pressure: 0.015-0.02Mpa
Ozone Generating Method: Corona Discharge (Ozone Tube)
Gas Resource: Ambient Air
Air Inlet Dim: 6.5mm
Air Outlet Dim: 6.5mm
*Power Source: AC110-120V or AC220-240V
Dimension: 142mmX98mmX48mm
Net Weight: 500g
Power Cable: 1-1.5m in length
Case: Plastic

Accessories: 2 sets of hose & diffuser stone

*Power Source: Products for AC220-240 countries are available also.
To users in England and the countries where use UK standard power plugs: We do not have UK standards power plugs. Users in these countries will get products with standard EU power plugs.


Features:

1. Low power consumption (12W) with high ozone output.
2. Compact design with built in air pump, buy and use instantly.
3. Able to connect with air dryer through air inlet.
4. Come up with 2 sets of hoses and diffuser stones.
5. Long life performance.



The unit 300U just does not come with one but the 300U+ does.

The air pump is just taking in ambient air, like another air pump, where the air dyer goes after the pump usually. With this one the dryer plugs into the air pump inlet line. Get a air dryer !! NOT theirs !!

For $50 it may be worth it. I would for sure use a controller on this unit, hands down :lol: I also wonder if it comes with a cleaning kit like Sander's. OK, I'm sure it does not :lol:

WOW, look at this one with a dial. I would buy one just to have it, if I still had tanks.

Hey Mojo, time to spend money

HGOZ-1000 mg @289.99US$