Pinched Mantle

[Marc]

Hi Guys. I was referred to this thread because I believe my tiny maxima may be suffering from PM (pinched mantle - not Private Messages) as well. Also, there are these lines running through the mantle that seem to correlate with the shell's opening, such as when the clam closes quickly and hits its mantle (like when we bite our lip accidentally).

I've read about half this thread, but hoped some of you might point me to the right post or perhaps summarize what has been determined by this point.

The tiny clam is not quite 2" wide, and I've had it for about a year. I just transferred it to my 2g Pico tank, and put it next to the brand new Utra Maxima I bought yesterday. Once I saw them side by side, it was obvious the older one needs some TLC now.

There is a chance that my Copperband Butterfly has been doing a number on it, but now it is in a fishless system so I'm not worried about predators.

 

[mojoreef]

Marc welcome to Reef Frontiers!

Looking at the max I would say that its not Pinched mantle. it looks like the clam has been crushed a bit and has damage from the shell edge cutting into the tissue of the mantle. I have not heard of this being a normal problem or behavior for giant clams, as in the clam forgets to suck in the mantle before closing. Couple of questions

Has this problem been something that has just started, or has it been developing for a long time?
What is your magenesium level in your reef??

Mike

 

[Marc]

Hey Mike (still love your DIY tank that you posted so long ago!)

The crease in the mantle has been on and off for a long time. I've had it since it was a baby, more than a year now. Here it is originally, in a 55g reef.
http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/0504/baby_maxima.html

It is now closer to 2" wide, but has continued to be at the very bottom of my 280g reef. I've tried to move it up higher or in a shell, but it keeps diving down to the substrate, or even the bare spot of glass. The tank is 30" tall, with a 400w MH directly above it. I watched my CBB actually take a perfect bulls-eye shot at it once, but never saw it happen again. I immediately thought this clam was a goner when that occured, but I needed the CBB more than the little maxima. (Aiptasia control, feather duster control)

Currently Mg is 1380ppm. Here's what my numbers have been. PO4 has been a huge problem for a long time, but I'm trying to get those under control: http://www.melevsreef.com/parms.html

Here is a picture of the maxima on 5/20/05:

Here it is on 6/24/05:

Since I had just set up a tiny tank to hold my zoo frags, I decided it might be wise to put the little guy in a smaller habitat with zero predators. I think it has been declining for some time now, due to water conditions and chemical warfare (on my part to reduce PO4), plus it is so far away from the light. Add to that the occasional fish nip... What you are seeing in the first picture I posted earlier today is what it looks like less than 24 hours in the new Pico (2g) tank.

 

[mojoreef]

Marc here is a thought. Now I am going from memory so bare with me. Your clam is right in the size zone where it is going to change the way it feeds. Its going from a clam that needs to rely on more on external sources of nutrition, capture of phyotplankton and direct absorbsion of nutrients to a clam that has enough sustainable zoox being cultivated to meet its nutritional requirements. (here comes the memory, lol) with in the tissue of the clam is has what are like tube hyways, these are used by the clams to transpoort the zoox for eating and thus nutrition. By looking at the condition of the mantle at best it looks like the area directly above the edge of the shell has been crushed, IMHO I would say that this damage has created a road block for the transport or overall nutritional input of the clam. Looking at the mantle in general I would say it is thin and weak looking. If it were me I would feed the clam as much as possible using an external method (phyto) for a period of time to where thier is enough mantle between the scare and the center of the clam to where it can one again feed itself. Could take a while.


Hope it help bud


Mike

 

[Barry N.]

I am going from memory

Mike, your memory is still sharp. :badgrin: Couldn't have explained it better myself. I totally agree with your thinking.

 

[chris&barb]

can i get some updates on everyones clams?
ive been going thru this for 6 months with no end in sight.
when i first got PM i had 20 clams,now i have 11 of those,and 2 new ones that i put in a steril tank that are pinching.any and all info please

 

[Maxx]

I have 3 clams in my 58 gallon tank. One Crocea, One Maxima, and one Derasa. No signs of PM since treating with Metro and hyposalinity.
Nick

 

[NaH2O]

Both of my clams are gone. I'm going to wait a few months before introducing any others. I wanted to try a different treatment with a drug called Praziquantel. In the fish world, it is called Prazi-Pro (animal world it is called Droncit and is used for tapeworms). I never got around to setting the QT back up again, so didn't order any....maybe something new to try against PM.

 

[chris&barb]

thanks for the info

 

[gbr]

i had one clam with PM for about 2 months. I finally did a 10 day hospital tank with Metro...the PM never fully went away...about day 3 was his best day, from then on he stayed the same or got worse, spawning at day 7. Before i put him back in the main tank I did a heavy feeding followed by a FW dip. He was PM free for about 2 weeks plus. Everything I had read implied it would be back within a couple of days so I thought I was in the clear. I then bought two more clams from Clams Direct and all 3 had signs of PM within a week. I have not done anything with these yet. They seem to be surviving so far but barely open. The one thing I have noticed is that if I move one of them, the one that opens the least, to farther away from the others, the others open up more...like he gives off a bad "vibe" to the others. Seriously, the closer he gets, the more they close up.

 

[Barry N.]

and all 3 had signs of PM within a week

Not being defensive but they developed PM with a week, so they looked good upon arrival so I would have to think that they contracted something in your tank. I have been to 4 major cities visiting some reef clubs and the last one I went to was in Sacremento and there were only 3 people there out of approx. 90 that have ever seen this PM. The ones that seem to be having these problems seems to be an on going problem. We have not seen any problem what so ever in months and all clams look fine when shipped and received so that has to tell us something.

Maybe going clamsless for a while might be the thing for the ones that are having problems. Sent a clam to Anthony a few months ago and he has had no problems at all but then again he had no clams in his tank upon arrival of the new one and the one that he received was from the same tank as our other clams. We have been keeping records for months now and it appears that less than 12% of the people who buy clams have a problem. Like everything else, the ones that have problems we hear about but the ones that don't have problems never say anything. Go figure.

 

[mojoreef]

I have seen another flux of clams coming in from other vendors then you recently Barry, so it looks like it is an inporter or holding facility problem. I also buy into the possibility that the protozoans could stay in the tank for a period of time for the initical exposure.
It seems like other vendors do not have the knowledge or experence that you have had with this problem and thus are over looking it. It might be a good idea for us to try to educated them so that we dont see this problem continue to hurt the hobbist?? What do you say to a Workshop on clams?? what to look for and so on??

 

[jlehigh]

I can confirm the problem is still around. I picked up 1 Crocea, 1 Deresa and Two Maximas several weeks ago. Because of This thread and the participation of Barry and Niki I was able to easily treat them for their PM immediately. The two Maximas recovered right away after their first dip, however the Crocea is still having issues (Third treament coming after I give it a lil rest).

The other Croceas, and Deresas in my tank have never shown any signs of an issue. Addressing the source of this issue is looking to be a daunting task..

I appreciate your work here Barry.

 

[Maxx]

Barry,
I do not have any signs of PM in my tank. I added two other clams after about 2 months of waiting to see if it would return. One clam came from Reefscience, (I've been wanting a tigerstriped Derasa clam forever...nobody had them, Not even you. Suddenly I saw some on RS's website, bought it, and no they all over the place...sigh) the other is a tiny Maxima that was in the LFS forever.....I've really only got room for one more clam in my tank (maybe) and I'm being picky about what it looks like, but I'll order from you again in a heartbeat. I like how you do business, you have good clams at great prices, and your livestock always arrives alive. You've always called me to confirm that they made it alright, usually before I've even gotten them in the tank and out of acclimation. I've ordered 5 clams from you and this is the only issue I've had. As soon as I find the right Teardrop Maxi, I'm buying and thats it....so I wait, and lurk on your site, I'll find it.

Like Mike says, I suspect this protozoan is coming from a shipping facility or some other 3rd party. My tank did have any clams in it for about 2 months while I had both of my Croceas in a 20 gallon QT/HT. I didnt do anything to my main tank before placing the surviving clam back in, so I dont think this protozoan hangs out in a substitute host or anything...or if it does, it doesnt hang out in turbo snails, (have two of those) Astrea snails, (have about 7 of those) or cerith snails, (I have about 30 of those)....

Nick


Nick

 

[NaH2O]

Nick - if you recall, my clams were also out of the tank for a period of time, however, the PM returned. I am going to wait 3 months this time, before I introduce another clam. For all I know, I could have a rock boring clam in my LR somewhere carrying this.

Barry, I must commend you for all the work you have done trying to find out what this is. For what its worth to others, I have also seen a couple of different retailers recently where the clams had PM. This is something that should not be blamed on any one vendor. At least Clams Direct takes the time to quarantine their livestock.

If anyone tries the Praziquantel, please post your experience. I'm almost tempted to pick up a clam with PM and try the treatment out (in QT of course).

 

[chris&barb]

i just picked up some Praziquantel and i will dose it in the morning.i had 11 clams in QT for at least 4 months.and just bought 2 new clams and put them in my clamles clam tank and thay pinched in a week. so now i moved all my clams back into the main tank and im going to dose the whole system(500g).i will let you all know how it go's

 

[chris&barb]

does anyone know the family of worms that might be affected from this treatment?i have christmas tree worms and featherdusters in my system.

 

[Barry N.]

We have eliminated about half our suppliers because we do not want to take a chance on getting in any clams that may be infected. Even though we have to pay more from our present supplier it is worth it, to have disease free tanks and we have never had a problem from this supplier. They even have a on site marine biologist that is always taken tissue samples as well as checking the water.

As some of you know, I travel throughout the US giving presentation on clams and members take me to their local LFS and when I was in Baltimore there was a LFS that had approx. 60 crocea with PM. I chatted with him and he had NO idea what I was talking about. This seem to be the case with a lot of suppliers and LFS. Clam, fish, coral and other livestock arrive one day and out the next. IMHO, that's bad business.

All we can do it try to educate supplier, retailer to quarantine ALL livestock but I can't see that happening any time soon because most of them want to move that livestock out before it dies in their tanks. with no consideration for the animal.

We will continue to work and if necessary spend more money to come up with a proper dosage with some of the medication that we are working with. But rest assured, we would and never have shipped any livestock that hasn't been through quarantine and looked 100% when leaving our facility. Even though we quarantine, we STILL promote quarantine before you place anything in your main display.

With everything being said, we have contacted hundreds of clam customer and this is not a wide spread problem as some would like us to think. Let face it, when someone has a problem, everyone hears about it but no one ever says anything as long as there isn't a problem.

 

[Travis]

Let face it, when someone has a problem, everyone hears about it but no one ever says anything as long as there isn't a problem.

Couldn't have said it better myself. People that have clams and have never had PM are very likely reading these PM threads but most likely don't post because they have nothing to contribute to a solution.

 

[mojoreef]

Ok Ok so I didnt post that my clams are doing fine, lol. So what do you think about a clam work shop their Barry?????????


Mike