Pinched Mantle

[Barry N.]

Steve,

All clams are showing NO signs of PM. If in the area, please stop by and take a peek

Have more clams coming in tonight from the same supplier that we have been using for the past month with no problems. They will be in quarantine till we get back from vacation on June 2nd.

 

[NaH2O]

Steve - when my clams first became symptomatic with pinched mantle, I did not have any crustaceans in my tank. I have since added them.

 

[steve-s]

Barry,

Exactly the answer I had thought I would get :idea:

I was hoping for more responses otherwise but the reason I was asking was in relation to the re-occurance in some instances after being returned to the main system from the QT. The transmission and life cycle of PM is not completely understood nor has it been properly documented.

The reason I think the crustaceans could be linked is if PM is not an obligate parasite it can interact with an intermediary host. If the clams are removed, any spores in the system can (if facultative) continue on in shrimps, crabs or possibley snails. Once a healthy clam is added to the system, it becomes a more attractive host.

Thoughts... :?:

Cheers
Steve

 

[NaH2O]

Steve - you bring up an interesting point about the protozoan. I did have snails, but not crustaceans, so perhaps snails are a possiblity. It would be nice to find someone looking for a research project to study the life cycle of the protozoan. Maybe some of us have boring clams we can't see in the live rock that also serve as a host to the protozoan.

 

[chris&barb]

looking good , @74

 

[Maxx]

Well I placed my blue Crocea back in the tank...it looked pretty bad for awhile...but has since turned around. The other (my Teardrop Crocea) unfortunately didnt make it.

Both Clams were in a 20 gallon tank filled up to about 12 gallons. The tank was lit with a single 175 watt 10 k bulb. They were both treated with several weeks of Metronidizole and also subjected to a 2 week period of hyposalinity in which the salinity of the tank was lowered to 1.015. Tank was kept at 80 degrees by a heater. Both clams browned out pretty badly, I'd never seen poop brown clams before.

The blue one seemed to get over the PM easier even though it was the first one to show signs. After a period of 2 weeks w/o showing signs of PM I placed it back in the main tank. Despite being told to do otherwise by Nikki and Mojo, I did not acclimate the clam to the main tank conditions. Instead I just placed it on the bottom of the tank so it could adapt to the increased lighting (dual 250 watt 10k DE's over a 21 inch deep tank). It gaped for the first day, and began to get lighter in color for the first week and a half. It has since regained alot of its color and I expect to be able to put back up where it used to sit (half way up the tank on a ledge) in a week or so. So far I havent seen any signs of PM for about a month in this clam....hoping to stay that way.

I did not acclimate the clam to my tank conditions because I wanted to make conditions as difficult on the protozoans as possible. I was pretty certain the clam would survive, and figured the rapid change in environment might be detrimental to any remaining parasites in/on the clam.

My Teardrop Crocea never made it out of the Q-tank. It was showing more mantle curling almost immediately after I placed the blue Crocea back in the main tank. It began to look worse and worse each day. Finally, it was no longer reactive to light stimulus, (wouldnt contract back into the shell reflexively when a bright flashlight was shone on it, or when the lights were removed to access the tank.) and it did not move at all when I touched the mantle with my finger. I attempted to see if it was still attached to the rock, and discovered that the entire byssal gland had been released by the clam. The byssus was still attached to the rock, but the clam tumbled free, so I removed it from the tank... The clam did not move/react in any way, shape, or form when it tumbled free of the rock or when I removed it from the tank.

So far I'm 50-50 for success vs losses in battling PM. I'm not ever buying clams that originate from Vietnam again....

Just thought I'd share my results in dealing with all of this. Better luck to the rest of you....

Nick

 

[chris&barb]

any updates?whats new?please share ur info.anything.

 

[Barry N.]

No new up dates but we haven't seen any PM in awhile so maybe the wholesalers/supplier have made some changes.

 

[Barry N.]

Update. We have had a lot of clams in quarantine since May 18th and happy to report no signs of PM. Hopefully the suppliers took us seriously and did what they had to do to prevent this parasite.

Any one that has had trouble with PM in the past, I would recommend doing several water changes over a period of time. We are still working with another lab to see what family of protozoan it was and how to best to treat it in the future as well as long long it will stay in the system it indeed it is in the system.

 

[roy]

Since I treated my clams with the medication all is well...no signs or symptoms of pinched mantle for twenty days now...Im keeping them in the Q tank for an extended stay.....Ill be breaking down the 75 and the clam tank and transfering the livestock to the twin 180 set up im working on...Hopefully that will be done within a month or so...Ill take your advice barry and flush the curent setup with lots of water changes...I just hope when ever I move the old live rock to the new tanks that the protazoan wont hitchhike...

 

[Barry N.]

no signs or symptoms of pinched mantle for twenty days

I think you will be fine. In our quarantine tanks we have no signs for 4 weeks now.

 

[Barbie]

I'm not sure if any of this information will be of any help at all, as it pertains more to freshwater protozoa, but I thought I would go ahead and share anyway, just in case.

There are a few freshwater fish that are highly susceptible to protozoal infections, primarily from hexamita. Usually discus and other softwater fish that are undergoing constant low level stresses in dealing with an environment that is a few steps away from ideal. In many studies and tests, hexamita has been found in the open sores they develop around their faces in much the same way that many saltwater fish develop HLLE. Varying the diet, increasing the temperature and frequency of water changes, and checking for low level voltage leaking in the system can usually slow down the progression of the problem. Discus will also turn very dark and become listless with white stringy feces when they are suffering from a hexamita protozoal overload.

So enough with the descriptions, on to the treatments . Metronidazole (Flagyl, available from most veterinarians if you can show them documentation about why you need it and where you're getting the dosing recommendations) was developed for use in humans, hence at higher temperatures. With discus, they recommend pushing the temperature up to 88-90 degrees for a huge jump in efficacy. The dosage is 400 mg/10 gallons, with a daily 50% water change. You can dose twice a day at the same dose for a faster strike at the problem, but it requires a water change before each dose. If those water changes were performed by adding the water from the main system into the smaller quarantine tank, you'd be using aged, stabilized water without much shift in parameters. Your main tank probably won't complain either! In FW it was determined that the protozoal population explosion isn't happening in the water column, but in the weakened fish itself. It sounds very much like that's also the case in Barry's samples.

Just my $.02 worth. I'm not sure if it will be of any help at all, but I do have some extensive experience using Flagyl, so I thought I'd at least offer up what little information I have. I'm praying I never have to worry about the problem with my own clam!

Barbie

 

[mojoreef]

Great info Barbie, thanks for sharing. It makes sence with the temp rising while treating or in place of as temp is one thing proto dont like


mike

 

[Barry N.]

Barbie,

Thanks so very much for the information you provided, it certainly make sense too me. When I strated using the metro, the marine lab that supplied me with it also suggested, water changes between dosages.

 

[NaH2O]

Just an update....my clams are not doing so hot anymore. I'm still weighing the option of treating them again. The smaller clam is really in bad shape, and I'm not sure if it could handle any more treatments.

 

[Scooterman]

Sad to hear that Nikki, wish there was something we could do to help, I know your one person that will go out of your way to do whatever it takes top provide a good home for your living reef. Seem to me that when you had them in a tank of their own they were doing better, maybe set-up a clean tank with just LR & MH lights & circulation just to see how they will do alone in a sterile environment, no treatments, just keep changing the water little by little?

 

[NaH2O]

Thanks Scooty! I do try and provide a good environment for my livestock. The clams did do fine in the QT, but they also were getting treated at the time. I may set up the tank again, and do another round of treatment. I have the metronidazole, so I might try a freshwater dip, then put them in with the metronidazole.

 

[mojoreef]

Any pictures nikki??


Mike

 

[NaH2O]

I just went a took a couple.

The first pic is old - from when they were in the tank after treatment...almost 2 weeks after treatment (i'm posting this pic, so you don't have to look back in the thread)

Here they are today

This pic is of the smaller clam (on the right in the above photo). It hasn't extended its mantle out in approx. a week. It is very sluggish in response to touch.

Here is the larger clam (on the left in the above photo). Over the past several days, it has started to look like this.

Another thing I noticed, and this may be normal but I don't know. The pic above...this clam has some serious growth only on part of its shell. You can see it on the left. I'm talking serious growth, but the other parts of the shell show a pretty even amount of growth. This piece almost sticks out further than the base of shell itself. Just thought I'd toss that out in case its relevant. I don't know if its attributed to the stress I have placed these clams under over the past 3 months or not.

 

[Maxx]

Hey Nikki,
Sorry to hear about your clams not doing so well.....
I have seen the lopsided growth before in one of my clams...it was in the Teardrop crocea which didnt make it.
I dont think the two things are related, (lopsided shell growth and PM), but its definately worth mentioning.

Nick