Pinched Mantle

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Nikki,

If I may suggest something. :) Someone brought in a clams with pinched and I did a FWD for 30 minutes and after the dip I placed it in a bowl of saltwater and some DT's and left in there for about an hour and after that it looked great. Like doing a IV :)
 
if the disease returns after a specific amount of time, then obviously all of the pathogens aren't killed - if indeed they are pathogens. Must take that much time for them to build to a population that causes harm. This would be an incredibly specific pathogen...if it was a protozoan I would think that a freshwater dip would kill it, unless there were some lodged in the tissue, and protected from bursting by the freshwater. Just some errant thoughts...
 
just wrote a book here but it guess it took to long and i got nixed?LOL ive had 4 croceas and 2 squamosa for a few years and never had PM befor i started to get Maximas ,now i have 9 Maximas, 6 of them teardropsand have had to FWD them for PM a few times . i think i have everything under controle but just wanted to give u all some info. I use TM or TM Pro reef for a 10% water change a week on a 450g system, i use eather Kent of Two little fishies Kalk 5g per day top off DT's every othery day ,CA 430 ALK9, PH 8.2 all others 0
 
chris&barb,
Welcome to Reef Frontiers! Sorry to hear about your PM troubles....seems to be cropping up here lately. I'd never heard of it until Nikki started researching why her clam was curling up like that.....now I'm fighting it...sigh

Anyway...
I PM'd Julio about how he dipped his clams in Lugols....Here's what he said:

The clams get a littel irritated by the iodine so the bath should not last anymore than 10 minutes fr a 3-4 inch clam, however from my experience it seems to cause the clam to slime a little which may cause it to shed what ever is irritating the mantle and causing it to pinch. The lugol's solution should be diluted at a 16oz. water ratio to 6 drops of iodine. Several baths may be needed if the conditions persist.

I've decided to wait until seeing PM again before doing the RO dip. This will give Barry some more time to come up with some answers from the lab. If I see it again after the last Ro dip and Barry still doesnt have answers yet, I'll try the Lugols dip.

Nick
 
Here's my plan for tomorrow (as of now anyway lol): I'm setting up my 20 gallon QT. The iodine dip will be at the strength & time posted above. From there I will place the clams in a fresh saltwater bath loaded with DTs for a little while. Then they will go in the QT for about 3 days with some feeding, and back to the main tank. The normal lighting for such a short period will be fine (think of how long they are shipping to the US).

I've also tossed around using the Seachem Reef Dip. Here is what it says:
Reef Dip contains elemental iodine complexed to a protective slime coat for safely and gently disinfecting corals. It is effective against bacteria, fungus, and protozoans. It may be used prophylactically (without evidence of disease) or to remedy diseased specimens. It is safe to use with both stony and soft corals. It is also safe for anemones and polyps.

I know we're talking about clams here, but what do you think?

I would be guessing about the protozoa, but from what I've searched, it seems that this may be up there with possible causes. There are too many unknowns at this point to make a definitive "that's what it is", but in my mind, I'm leaning that way. Perhaps the protozoan has a defense mechanism or secretion that protects it from the freshwater. Maybe it can get into the tissues. I'll see what more information I can find.
 
Nikki,

IMO, I would go with your plan and the more I read about protozoan the more it could come into play with this issue. Mike directed me to some good reading material and still trying to digest it all. :) Of course I have nothing else better to do. :D
 
Well If it wasnt the Temp then It was the Prolonged Low Salinity water they were forced to deal with in my tank.. Was at 1.007 for 1 week... Whoops... Went on Vacation and had a bad incident... Clams made it just fine... LOL... Lost half my SPS and a Sixline :( But all is better now and that wont happen again... All I can say is damn CPR overflow...

James
 
John-

Yes we have just recently started to lower our salinity in the clam tanks to 1.022 as that is where most of the major wholesalers run theirs at in the invert tanks. We were at 1.025
 
Barry I meant down around 1.009 or so, same as doing a hypo salinity thing on fish. Illusion posted that his PM was cured and the two things that happened was lowering the temp., which sounds like you have tried with no success, but he posted his SG dropped to 1.007 while on vacation. Just wondering about trying that on clams since we do it on fish.
 
John,

Have never tired that myself as everything that I have read says that they will not survive long periods of hypo-salinity. Am certainly surprised that his survived that long.

I think the thing here is that we are seeking what causes the problem. ;)
 
I never thought the Hypo Salinity thing would have done it since I thought it would have done more harm than good.. But the only 2 things that I did was lower the temp and went on vacation... And came home to find the Sg was extremely low... I believe I had talked in the past with you Barry about my PM on the clams on your forums and was just FW dipping them and mentioned that It must have bene some sort of parasite as it only happened after I added a Gold Teardrop which started the thing and died... From that point on I was plagued with It... I could have swore that in one of your posts over there Barry it stated that you raised the temp to like 82 and the mantles started to pinch... Thats when I decided In my mind that it must have been due to the temp..

James
 
Barry it stated that you raised the temp to like 82 and the mantles started to pinch...

mmm, maybe I misunderstood your question then. We did some experiments in temps by raising the temp from 77 - 86 over a period of a week and could not see any pinching but at first we thought it might be a heat issue as most people were reporting problems when the tanks heated up and when we were shipping in the summer months. Now today I don't think that is the cause but still think it might be a mico parisite or protozoan.
 
This is all just speculation, because we aren't certain of what causes this....but if it is parasitic, perhaps the elevated temperature plays a role in how quickly they reproduce or their effect somehow....just guessing really. It seems that the temperatures and salinities have some sort of role....but maybe just secondary. The last freshwater dip I performed I used a turkey baster and blasted the clams, getting the shell, and trying to get inside - hoping to free whatever was on there. The problem I ran into was they would close up, so I couldn't be sure the entire mantle was in contact with the freshwater.

If this iodine dip doesn't work, then I'll try another. If this doesn't do the trick, then I'll attempt some other ideas with the QT. What is so frustrating, is if I do get the clams well again, then that doesn't help get to the bottom of the problem. Barry - for sure, if the lab needs another couple of clams that have been through a treatment or two for comparison, let me know.
 
Barry - for sure, if the lab needs another couple of clams that have been through a treatment or two for comparison, let me know.

When we send the clam/s to the lab they want the ones that have not be treated. :)

frustrating,

Been on this for over 2 years !!! Frustrating, what's that? :rolleyes:
 
Well I have not uploaded any images on this forum so if it doesn't work I will have to have someone do it for me. :)

These are the clams that are being sent to the lab today Will now have to wait for the results.
 
Here is a copy of a letter that I received last night that I would like to share as it is well documented. This is the type of imformation I like to keep in our data base.

" Hello Barry.

My name is Rob Feeney. I purchased some clams last year shortly after meeting you at Macna. You added a beautiful little gold maxima that was 1.5" across as a free hitchhiker... We appreciated it very much, and it's grown in to a fine little clam. Very prominent growth in the last 4 months.

My current system is a 29gal SPS system with very high flow. A small clam island is sheltered from the flow, and is directly under a 250w DE halide.
Temp: 80 degrees F
pH: 8.20-8.25
alk: 9.0dKH (Schuran Jetstream 1 reactor takes care of Ca/alk)
Ca: 420ppm
I used to feed cultured phyto, but after 2 years of culturing I turned to DTs
PO4: undetectable
NO3: undetectable.

As you may recall, I had an issue with pinched mantle with one of my Croceas shortly after introduction to my system. I've made some observations while treating the clam (all 3 showed signs of PM at one point). My overall conclusion is that each freshwater dip performed produced several dead critters, and the duration of the dip seems to have the largest impact.


Now for my journal of events:

First dip:
One Crocea was showing greater signs of PM. As per my reading, I performed a 15 minute feshwater dip to the affected clam only. pH and temperature were matched. I used a dropper full of kalkwasser to match the pH. The Crocea did NOT fully close during the dip. Mantle was out (and still appeared to be ruffled) 2o minutes after re-ntroduction in to the aquarium.

In the while bowl, I searched with a hand-lens. Serveral large ampipods and some gammarus shrimp were present. Absolutely no pyramellids or starfish. A few small (1/4") unsegmented worms were present. They were still moving, but obviously crippled.

The following day, the mantle looked MUCH better. A small amount was still curled adjacent to the excurrent siphon. It's interesting to note that the mantle would regain it's pinched appearance after the lights were out (my clams never fully close at night. About 30% mantle extension is normal). The second day showed the most improvement.

The clam remained with a slight "purse string" area across the mantle at the posterior side. This did not improve, rather worsened with time. At night time, the clam would look worse, escalating to a two-week period after the first dip.

Second (and successive dips):
Many dips were performed similar to the first dip. The time increased 1 minute each time to a total of 20 minutes. Again, temp and pH were matched. Improvements were exactly the same as the first dip; strong improvement the following day, marked my a gradual decline over a period of 2 to 3 weeks.

In the dipping bowl, similar animals were found. Still the unsegmented worms showed signs of life. There were far less ampipods, copepods, and gammarus this time. The clam would continue to eject copepod exoskeletons for days after the dip. (I tried to photograph the contents of the bowl, but was unsuccessful each and every time)

Third round: 2 Croceas infected.
The second crocea showed signs quickly and without any notable change (I'm very thorough with recording any and all changes in my systems) The baby maxima was growing well at this point (2 months) and showed no signs whatsoever. At this point, I decided that it might be more thorough to dip the maxima (which remained unaffected at this point) for a part of the duration. While dipping, all clams still remained slightly open, (and ALL 3 squirted me :^) The maxima got me right in the forehead) Reaction was the same as above, except that the clams completely closed during all dips 20 minuter or more. Animals in the white bowl were numerous. Clams opened up 1 hour after re-introduction. For the FW dip, I was still matching temp, but was no Ionger matching pH.

Duration was set to 20 minutes (Maxima 15 minutes), and 3 successive dips lead to 25 minutes (maxima- full duration after the first dip). Pinching would still be evident after lights-out.

Fourth round: Maxima infected, 2 croceas infected.
The maxima was showing signs of pinching, as well as both croceas. The first crocea to be infected (continuously from introduction) was now much smaller than the other crocea. They were very close to the same size upon introduction. The maxima had grown considerably. Things were starting to turn for the worst.

I was ready for a 30 minute dip, but very worried about my baby maxima, who had been growing well. The night before the dip, I prepared a large bowl with some DTs, and placed all the clams in the bowl for a heavy feeding. It was my hope that the big meal would help them out for the following day. They cleared the water right up! Happy little clams.

The following day all 3 clams were put in a fresh water dip. Temperature was matched. Clams closed tight at 22 minutes. This was a very long half-hour!

In the bowl: numerous critters. Many new animals that I had not seen before. Despite my half-hour photo session, nothing turned out at all. I should've used a black container. I presumed that I'd be dipping again in the near-future, so I wasn't too heartbroken.

The clams did not open upon reintroduction to the aquarium. There was 2 hours of photoperiod left, and all I got was an occasional 'hiccup' from a clam releasing an air bubble. I was very concerned. I checked several times during the night, and was revieved to see the siphons were visable in the early morning. The tiny amount of mantle exposed showed no signs of pinching at all. No tiny ruffles, no purse-strings, nothing. This was a first.

Upon returning home from work that day, I witnessed unprecidented mantle extension. I tried not to get my hopes up, but made a point of showing my wife, houseguests, and even my siamese cat. (grin) Everything looked GREAT. I cautiously approached the tank the second evening after lights out, and witnessed no signs of PM. This would normally be the time that my spirits would be crushed.

It's been 2 months now, and I've yet to see any ruffling around the mantle whasoever. I'm also enjoying a large white ring of growth on all 3 of my clams. At this point, I can spot signs of PM from a 1/4 mile away, and I'm confident that I may have finally moved beyond it.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd likely build up from a 20 minute dip again. (I know you advocate a 20-30 minute dip) My clams still seemed to be healthy, but preliminary observations told me that the problem would always deteriorate into a much, much bigger problem without intervention.

I hope that my experience can help you with your database. I wish I had the means to create a controlled experiment, but I'm afraid that my observations are all that I can offer. For what it's worth, I observered the animals that reamined in the bowl after each dip, and the shear volume of different animals that remained after the final dip really made an impact on me. I have never really suspected PM to be a disease, but water a reaction to something else. My observations of the number of animals that were removed from my clams only strengthen this feeling. An unfair analysis would suggest that a longer duration was required to remove the detrimental animals. Obviously, this isn't suitable for a conclusion.

I hope to be placing an order with your again in the very near future.

Best Regards,

Rob Feeney
 
I wanted to post pics of the clams before I attempt the iodine dip tonight. The larger of the clams is not looking so hot today. It is gaping pretty good, and the mantle isn't curling as much as it is pinching together near the back.

also I apologize for the poor quality shot:
pinch3clam1before.jpg


here is the smaller of the 2 clams. One thing I noticed is a "slime" coming from the mantle where it is curled up. Not sure if that means anything, but thought I'd point it out. The slime looks like a long string of mucous, and the clam will close up quickly to get rid of it. I tried to get a pic, but my photography skills aren't so good.

pinch3clam2before.jpg


and a close up:

pinch3aclam2before.jpg
 
Since I have been crazy observant, and the larger clam seemed to be gaping a lot more than usual, I noticed something. I thought the gills looked different, but i also noticed this other part....I'm not sure what it is, but it doesn't look too healthy, and I'm thinking this isn't a good thing. Not knowing enough about clam anatomy, yet - I can't say if this is bad or not? Is it part of the byssal, and if it is, is it ok?

I know in the second picture I also point out the gills, but I wanted to point to the area I thought looked different than usual. Might not be anything, but I like the red arrows and pointing them everywhere :) .
 
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